Is There a Future forWebflow Freelancers?

0:00Janne Parri: Okay, Derek, so you've got down on Fiverr projects. Why is that? And would you still recommend those platforms to anybody?

0:08Derek Siu: Yeah, so firstly, Janne, thanks again for having me on the Webflow and Friends podcast. Really appreciate it. To answer your question, just for your audience sake, Fiverr is an online marketplace platform similar to Upwork where freelancers typically would bid for projects online and then clients will reach out and then you'll engage in a service based on whatever you want to charge. That's what Fiverr is just for context sake. I no longer do Fiverr anymore. I actually quit it a year and a half ago, which was very hard for me because it was the main bulk of the revenue.

0:42Derek Siu: I think as any freelancer would know that it's all about the revenue. But I really thank God that I had some referrals so I can keep going outside of Fiverr. But to answer your question, when I did do Fiverr, it really excelled my freelance career specifically because it empowered me to have essentially ongoing revenue as I mentioned and it took a long time to get the ball rolling as they say cuz you can't just sign up on the platform and then you know the next day you have like a hundred leads.

1:14Derek Siu: What I find Fiverr is that it's a it's like a social media platform like Facebook or YouTube. It has an algorithm. We both do websites, so we both know a blog page. This is how I think of stuff as a developer. It's like a blog page. And then what blogs do you want to feature first on that first page? Do you rank it by A to Z? Do you rank it to newest to oldest? Fiverr definitely does not do that. You can't just create a new Fiverr profile and be ranked first. They have some sort of algorithm where you have to consistently do work. You have to reply to messages within a certain hour, within 24 hours.

1:47Derek Siu: Not sure if you even noticed that. And they literally have different tiers, level one, level two, level three, and then the highest is top seller. And they also handpick people to be like Fiverr Pro. These are all selling points as we both know as a freelancer. But it takes ages to get to that stage. So when I when I did Fiverr, it took a long time. I think I was very very lucky because in Fiverr, it had a tab that can filter between different countries. And then I'm from Australia. So when people do filter by Australia, there was almost zero competition in Webflow.

2:20Derek Siu: So if you actually type in Webflow developer on Fiverr, just by default, I'm I have no doubts. There's like that pagination. I'm sure it goes 99 pagination. Just like a Google search, nobody goes to the second pagination. But I was very lucky that someone reached out and then I did I did the work and I did I did all of the work. Maybe you can relate as well, Janne, at the discount cuz we don't know how much to charge. It's all new to us. Yeah. Yeah. And then I just slowly got the ball rolling and then eventually I transitioned from my full-time work. So I was doing full-time and Fiverr, but then it just made sense to transition and then and then yeah, I just took that leap of faith because at the end of the day is a massive leap of faith to transition to freelance cuz it's not really stable in quotation mark.

2:59Derek Siu: And especially what I've been doing cuz I don't know about you Janne, there's two ways to do it. You can do a Webflow maintenance package perhaps or you can just do one-time projects. So, typically I've been doing one-time projects, and there's pros and cons for both, but once you do the one-time project on Fiverr, you complete the order, that's it, man. Maybe they'll refer you more work. Maybe you do a small add-on. I've never upsold them maintenance work like a retainer. So, you have to find the next one and the next one. So, I did that for a year and a half. And it was looking back at it now, it was pretty hardcore as in like you have to check your messages all the time.

3:33Derek Siu: You have to quote the work. You have to do the work. You have to make sure the client is happy. Then I found it personally that because it's a game and it's all like a level system, you get testimonials and then sometimes I freak out because I'm like, "Oh wow, what if like I work with the wrong client and I didn't price the work high enough? It's not even worth taking it because what if they give me a negative review?" Like sometimes the reputation is not important. So I find a lot of pressure doing that on Fiverr. That's why I kind of stopped. And nothing against Fiverr. I really like the platform and everything. But one thing you also got to consider is that Fiverr actually takes a cut from both the freelancer and also service fee.

4:08Derek Siu: So think about Uber Eats when you order food delivery. There's a service fee and a delivery fee. That's exact same thing. It's standard because you get to be featured on their platform. But that does cut into the revenue quite a bit. So that's why I that's why I kind of stopped. And to be honest, I kind of forgot your question. You kindly just repeat.

4:26Janne Parri: No worries. I don't I don't remember it either. So but Fiverr it is at all those all those platforms Upwork and I believe Contra one of the newer ones those are those are super interesting especially if you're just starting out you do not have like network incoming leads and such. So those have that potential as you said it's not easy to get started although you can see see that potential but when you when you got the ball rolling I believe you earned the top top ranked thing and were you actually a pro, pro badge too do you see difference on those Fiverr projects and your own projects because everybody well not everybody many of us have that feeling or assumption that Fiverr projects are like smaller, maybe more like bargain budget projects and so on.

5:22Janne Parri: So, does that hold? Is that true in your experience?

5:24Derek Siu: Yeah. Again, I can only speak from when I was doing Fiverr a year and a half ago. Seriously. And I think the Fiverr Pro thing was kind of new. Like when I was doing Fiverr, like I slowly got the ranks like level one, level two, then top rated seller. I think getting those badges at the time, it helped because it increased your ranking in the search results. But then the Fiverr Pro, I'm very sure as I was doing Fiverr, they slowly introduced that feature if I remember correct. And when they handpicked me, like I'll just be honest, like it's just it's just like for you, for example, when you reach a subscriber milestone on YouTube, you geek out.

5:57Derek Siu: You're like, "Oh my gosh, I did it." but I think I think with the human condition, we're never satisfied or at least me, we're never satisfied. So once I got the pro, Fiverr Pro, I was like, of course, I was super happy. But then two weeks later, it's just like, oh, okay, I'm just a Fiverr Pro now. But it did definitely help because it gives you like a badge and also it also has another filter in Fiverr where I mentioned earlier you can filter between countries but this time you can filter between pro services or not pro services. And from a freelance business perspective I slowly picked up this skill people take that seriously as in if a company for example Microsoft or Google again I'm not claiming that they use Fiverr they probably don't they have an internal team they wouldn't want to get a normal level one level two seller they would take the Fiverr Pro and just in their mind they're like, "Okay, this guy must be a pro because Fiverr picked them out and Fiverr is a massive marketing platform." So, yeah, it definitely helped for sure.

6:45Derek Siu: Without a doubt.

6:46Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. And what about those projects when you compare them to your current projects that you have found yourself? So, is there a difference between those?

6:57Derek Siu: Yeah. So, in Fiverr, I think I think it's a hit or miss. Sometimes you get some people with very low budgets and I think once you reach a s once you reach a certain stage in freelance you realize that you literally cannot take that because of opportunity cost. So you have to constantly turn them down. But sometimes you get really good clients. They're very serious. They know what they want. They have the budget. They're willing to spend. Those are good ones. But even then, like I said, you have to establish the relationship. And sometimes it might be a risk because you're like, "Wow, there's a lot at stake. They think I'm a pro." Sometimes there's also a that word that you're not too confident like a fraud

7:32Janne Parri: imposter syndrome for a moment.

7:33Derek Siu: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you get that as well. But once you do it a bit more then you get more confident in regards to like Fiverr projects and like people who reach out to me like organically. So now I mostly get my work from referral and on my website through Google just organic SEO ranking. There's a difference because the people who reach out to me currently, they're mostly like Australian businesses and they're mostly referrals from people that used to work in Fiverr. So, there is a difference. I think the biggest difference in that I can think of is the pressure is much less when you're off Fiverr because you don't have to worry about playing into their game or their system where you might get a negative review and it might just ruin your reputation and all that stuff.

8:14Derek Siu: So, that's the biggest the biggest one. And also how Fiverr takes a certain cut as well is something to consider.

8:19Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah, that's super fascinating. Okay, before we go any any further, we have to do little intros. I'm always getting excited and I almost forgot to do the do the intro part, but yeah, you are now listening to Webflow and Friends podcast. My name is Janne Parri and my guest today is Derek Siu, a freelance designer and Webflow developer from Sydney, Australia. Derek started out in marketing and graphic design before finding Webflow. He has completed over 350 projects.

8:51Janne Parri: As a talked, he earned the top rated seller badge on Fiverr. And at the start of this year, 2026, he also became an official Webflow partner. And Derek also teaches. He has been making Webflow tutorials on YouTube since 2021, I believe. And that's where I first found him. And nowadays he also has two paid courses on Webflow and freelancing. So Derek, you do Webflow work, design work, courses, YouTube. How did you end up doing all of this?

9:24Janne Parri: And like what is the biggest thing you focus on right now?

9:27Derek Siu: Yeah, of course, man. Dude, that was unexpected. Then you did your research. So thanks for doing that. It's definitely a high-level summary. I actually got into it by accident. Like I didn't I didn't like as a kid like my dream was like an architecture or psychologist. I never woke up as a kid saying, "Oh, I want to be a web developer or a designer or a Webflow developer because Webflow wasn't even a thing when I was a kid." But essentially, I was working a full-time job in marketing like you mentioned and then the COVID happened and then I just signed up to Fiverr which we talked about earlier and then it just so happened to pick up and then it just so h the timing was it's just I couldn't predict the timing.

10:06Derek Siu: It just made sense to transition and then and then I did Fiverr and then after Fiverr I stopped it like I mentioned earlier. Then I moved into like just getting clients through referrals and my website. So it's a lot man. It was a like I look back on it to be honest y and I just I can't even believe this is my life to be very honest. It's very hard to believe. I definitely not predict it or plan it and there's so many lessons along the way. For example, business lessons. Cuz I think that's the one of the biggest things that people struggle with is that when you grow up, you typically work for a company. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

10:37Derek Siu: But if you're going to do freelancing, you have you have to learn the fundamentals of business, which you alluded to that I have a course on that, a business/freelance course. And in that course, sounds like I'm selling it, but I'm not. But in the course, I'm trying to explain that as a freelancer or any business person, you need to know the fundamentals like sales, how to sell your product or service, marketing, how to market it, cuz you could be selling it, but there's no one to sell to. You need to know the legals as well. So, one thing about Fiverr is they have contracts built into the system. And if there's dispute, then Fiverr will go ahead and step in their team.

11:10Derek Siu: But if there's not Fiverr, then what happens when there's a dispute in legal resolution, and you're not a lawyer, you know what I mean? So, there's that. And then there's a bunch of other stuff I forget on top of my head, but there's a lot of stuff that you have to consider. So I think that's the biggest learning experience is to wear many hats because typically I find it if you work in an office and again nothing that you're typically niched and specialized in one area for example design, you're just a mobile designer or a website designer, but you don't really get the full-on experience of like how to quote the work, being inside client calls, all this stuff.

11:43Derek Siu: So it's a lot of work as I'm sure and it's sometimes very confusing to play many hats. Like for example, I'm doing this podcast so I'm trying to act chill and calm. But if I'm on a client call, I'll be even more professional. But then if I'm like with my friends, I'll be like very casual. And then if I'm like just design if I'm coding in Webflow like I'm like a different person. Like it's sometimes like you get this I don't know if you feel you get this identity disorder type thing. So that's probably the biggest realization that I had.

12:10Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. I'm just imagining you on with a suit and tie on a client call being super professional. Yeah, that is so that is so true. Usually it's a good good thing to start for example in an agency or an in-house role at the start of your career to just learn the craft but as you said there's so many things if you jump into freelancing role or want to build something something even bigger there are so much of that little stuff. Some of them you can learn while you're going.

12:41Janne Parri: But for example, those legal things, it's super helpful if you know them already and do some like preparation to avoid those big big risky things that might come up. And usually people say and I would I would say also that if you do this long enough you will end end up seeing some bad apples or end up working with people who might not be the best people if I put it in that way.

13:12Janne Parri: So, so yeah, definitely there's a lot of things you should like try to avoid and courses and things are definitely good way to way to start on those. And yeah, I'm thinking I'm thinking relating to the Fiverr Fiverr thing. I would imagine that when you did that Fiverr work like the amount of projects was bigger but do you still do like multiple projects and at the same time or do you try to do one maybe two or what's the balance there?

13:45Derek Siu: Yeah I guess another thing that I forgot to mention is like project management. You got to learn how to do project management. So answering your question so right now honestly I take things day by day. Another point that I want to just raise while we're on it is that there's a difference between working in the business and then on the business. So the question that you just asked me is something that I have all in my CRM for example on Notion. So I can see what projects I'm working on every single month. So, I can't answer this on top of your head, but if you were to tell me back when I did Fiverr how many projects I did, I can literally open up my Notion dashboard and then I can literally filter between January 2024 or January 2022 and I can see I worked with 20 people on Fiverr and I made this amount of money and then this amount of money after Fiverr fees, this amount of money after tax.

14:30Derek Siu: So, that's something that I just want to flag. But right now, I honestly I still I personally find it hard to find time to work on the business. I don't know if you can relate, Janne, but I think you can relate because you were talking about creating a website and it taken you two years to do your own website. So I think I think as a freelancer or a business person, we understand that we get the revenue now, which is short-term, but then sometimes you need to sacrifice short-term in order for long-term so you can get more sustainable outcomes. So that's something I still need to think about to this day cuz right now I'm still taking project work and recently I've been really burnt out.

15:08Derek Siu: I've never felt I felt burnt out before, but this has been 3 months in a row and I know I've been burnt out because I literally don't have the joy in doing anymore and I get really stressed and anxious. So, I still need to figure everything out. But right now, I still do what I pretty much do on Fiverr where I just take projects and it's multiple at a time. It could be anywhere between I'll say the lowest is probably like two to three per month. It could go all the way I'm not trolling, but it can go all the way up to 20. But granted, the 20 isn't like 20 website work. It could just be like fixing a website element or just adding one component.

15:41Derek Siu: But it definitely ranges and that's definitely something that I want to flag is that because we're in this industry, there's so much unpredictability. One day you're super busy, one day you're not. And the craziest thing is like I mentioned with the revenue, you have to think ahead. So, you want to plant the seeds or that's how I see it. You want to take the client calls the potential discovery calls because in 2 months later it could yield some fruit. But in 2 months later, you don't know. You could be super busy, fully full fully booked. It's hard to manage everything by by yourself. Can you relate as well? Totally. Totally.

16:12Janne Parri: This is Let's Let's dive into this because maybe once a year, once once in the two years, I'm like super booked and I like think that how did I end up in this situation? I have too many projects. I shouldn't do this. But that's a problem that I keep having and I feel stupid because I should somehow like be able to prevent that. Last spring I had this situation that I had a couple of projects booked in. Those were good projects but one of my friends started in an in-house role and they referred like actual bigger clients, bigger projects for me and I didn't want to say no.

16:55Janne Parri: So, I was doing maybe twice the normal load and that was horrible. But obviously, I wanted to say yes to those big projects, but I couldn't say no to the smaller ones. So, that's kind of the opportunity cost right there. But yeah, that's that's definitely a challenge. And yeah, then there is the internal work like working on your business. And I always feel like that's the fun part. I wish I had all the time to work on my business. That client work might be just just fine and interesting.

17:27Janne Parri: But usually the fun stuff is when you do your own own systems, own marketing, own content. Content being a big thing. I know that you do that too. So there's so much there, but you have to do some sort of system. Maybe I will be able to prevent those those over booked things in the future. I don't know. I would love to get in a get in a situation where I would do just one one big project at the time. Obviously, there will be those small little fixes that you mentioned some hourly work or something like that.

18:02Janne Parri: I'm not sure when I will get that. Right now, I'm doing like maybe two two or three like big project site builds or design plus build or something like that at the time. And yeah, that is just the way it has been been for a while. But do you have some sort of goal where you would want to be in this matter?

18:25Derek Siu: Yeah. Well, firstly, I just want to respond by like it's very interesting what you said and I think it's a good problem to have. Let's we're in a I personally find we're in a position of privilege that we can perhaps say stuff like, "Oh, there's too much work. We don't know what to pick or we don't know what to prioritize." I want to acknowledge that because I know when you're starting out sometimes you literally have no work and you need to just do whatever you take to get it. But you're definitely right about like opportunity cost. It's very I personally find it very hard to prioritize what to do.

18:55Derek Siu: And I guess that's what really a CEO does. They look at the bigger picture where they look at the goals in 5 10 years and they have that vision. So I think it's very important to have vision and then that way you can allocate your time correctly. That's that's some stuff that I want to point out. Yeah.

19:10Janne Parri: Totally. Totally. And as you said, you have to sacrifice the short term to do the long-term like things. For example, content creation. Everybody knows that content is a good good thing and everybody should do that. But it takes time for that to get working and you do not you do not like know how much time that takes. So that's the messed up thing with content, but everybody knows that you should do that. I know that you have two YouTube channels. How's that content thing working on for you right now?

19:41Derek Siu: Yeah, thanks man. I agree with you how content takes ages cuz we both have a YouTube channel. You alluded to I have one main YouTube channel where I do like Webflow tutorials and Webflow showcase and even then a channel is almost like a business your side freelance business where you were questioning should I take on this project or two projects at a time. Exact same premise on YouTube. You have to think oh is this content worth the time investment that I'm doing? What type of content should I do? So, in the past, I previously just exclusively made Webflow tutorials because at the start, I found that very, very interesting. And I don't know if you know the person, but do you know Chris Do by any chance?

20:16Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. I do know that.

20:18Derek Siu: The GOAT man. I don't know if you heard of this quote, but he says like the best way to learn or one of the best ways to learn is to teach. And I resonated that so well or so much that when I started the YouTube channel, like that was really my goal, just to teach so I can learn myself. Like I'm not really teaching for others but for myself but it so happened the channel picked up and u yeah but nowadays in YouTube I'm trying to explore different pathways of different content and I think in a YouTube career sense the career pathway/ladder there's there's so much opportunity in my opinion where you can do partnership deals you can get bigger audience you can do affiliate links but I think we both understand and we both alluded to at least I personally think there is a ceiling there is definitely a ceiling of what you can do with one person due to the amount of time that you have that I guess that's why companies hire different people is so that they can scale.

21:09Derek Siu: We hear this word a lot. I don't know if it's cringe but we hear this word like scale. So that's something that like I think everyone has to think about like are you going to exit? Are you going to sell your company or you going to take it to the next level by scaling by hiring people so you can do more with your time. I think that's something to consider as well because there is a ceiling as you know you can't just you have to sacrifice something you know.

21:29Janne Parri: Totally, totally. And that's the thing when you get this freelancing thing working, you kind of taste the freedom and every every benefit. Obviously, there's like responsibilities. You are kind of like bringing in your own work. You have to do the sales and so on. But you see all these opportunities like you can maybe build an agency doing the same thing that you started doing with the freelancing thing. You could do the content thing. There's like ways of monetizing that and you could basically build a content or media thing and all those all those possibilities but you kind of especially with the content like I would love to for example I would love to hire a pro editor for this podcast but before this podcast brings in any revenue I kind of cannot do that or else I'll have to like fund that from my freelance ing work or somewhere else.

22:28Janne Parri: So that's a tough thing to get started and obviously we see all those examples of like big creators for example Chris Do that have that kind of system and everybody wants to that wants to get there but it's tough. Wouldn't you agree? 1,000%

22:45Derek Siu: man. Well firstly Chris Do has a massive team and office. He's doing it for many years. He seems like the guy that's just doing the high level stuff. Obviously, he's not going in and doing the design of the pitch deck or the design of his presentation slides or even the design of coordinating where he's going to do these speaking events. He obviously has someone who does that, right? Obviously, he's not the one filming the video. He's not the one editing it. Perhaps he's sitting in the meeting just looking at extreme high level. Perhaps he's not even doing that. He just has the his brand creative strategist underneath him who does all this stuff. So, I definitely think for sure that there's a ceiling and yeah, man, I relate to everything you're saying Janne, where it's like, do if I do this YouTube channel, do I fund my own investments in my main revenue in your case?

23:29Derek Siu: In my case, Webflow work. Does that make sense? If I'm going to do that, it's an investment, which means it might not work out. Am I willing to, you know, invest perhaps one year of my time to give this podcast a go? I mean, you clearly have been doing this for a long time, 52 episodes. It's like it's a lot of stuff to consider, right? And then this is all the stuff that you have to consider on top of your personal life and on top on top of your client life. It's just I find it's just constant thinking and I just sometimes I'll be honest don't even know what to prioritize. I think it comes back to the fact that we're just limited and there's a ceiling of what we can and cannot do and we have to eventually pick a lane perhaps.

24:04Derek Siu: Maybe you can't do everything at once. I don't know. What do what do you think?

24:09Janne Parri: Yeah, the picking picking lane that tough especially for a creative person like I believe we both both are like there's some some part of me that thinks that as long as I keep keep on showing up for let's say the content thing eventually it will work out. If I keep improving eventually will work out but as I said before you never know when it's going to work out. So that's the big question mark. So yeah, it's it is tough, but I do think that content is something something that will be beneficial even in this AI era.

24:46Janne Parri: Like opinions are something that people will still be valuing when AI takes all of our jobs and so on. So I believe that's one safe bet. But yeah, I'm not like sure what else is there with this AI thing. So kind of pivoting a bit towards the AI thing like how do you see AI in this whole thing?

25:11Derek Siu: Yeah, I personally find AI currently to be mind-blowing in the sense that I guess it started with ChatGPT and Gemini. I personally use it for my client work. For example, I used to have I used to hire a backend developer just one time. If I have a problem, I'll send it to him and I used to pay him like hourly which is pretty high. And but nowadays I don't even do that. I just go into AI, ChatGPT. Personally use Gemini now and I just ask these questions like how to create this custom code in Webflow to make this slider move using attributes right and it literally spits it out and it's great because as Webflow developers we understand what this is you just implement it and I believe even if you're not a Webflow developer maybe you can get away with implementing it by just keep talking to the AI and then in AI outside of freelance work or Webflow work even on YouTube or even on this podcast we were talking about it before you know it started how you're using a program called Riverside and I'm using Tella.tv and it helps a lot in terms of editing because we both know if we were to sit here and edit this 2-hour podcast, you will not have time or like it would take you like 8 hours perhaps and then you got to market it, write the description.

26:17Derek Siu: So, I think AI really speeds up workflow, especially with these tools, but you know where it's going to go in the future, I genuinely do not know. And I would love to get your thoughts on this, Janne. Like in Webflow when we both started, I'm assuming it was pretty basic. There was no AI. You would just code a website. But nowadays, Webflow's releasing a lot of functionalities with MCP, with AI, with I think Webflow Source. I'm not sure if you've been to the Webflow Conference, but like I personally find there's so much to learn. I don't even have the time. I'm being honest. I don't even have the time to sit there and learn it because like we keep mentioning and we keep coming back.

26:51Derek Siu: We're limited and there's only so much we can do. And if we're going to sit there and learn it, it's going to be like more of a long-term thing where we're going to have to sacrifice a lot of short-term work and then just pick up that skill and then have the faith that's going to essentially yield some fruits essentially. So, do you find that as well?

27:05Janne Parri: Totally. I have said this many times on the pod like AI was supposed to help us, but instead it kind of puts the pressure on everybody to learn more like to keep up with all the all the new tools, all the new features. And like right now I feel like back when it was maybe a good choice to focus on Webflow development just like doing the actual like deployment or the actual Webflow project without the design but nowadays because you can do so much so much more with AI at least I feel like I'm pressured to do everything like from the design to the development marketing stuff and obviously the AEO stuff and so on.

27:52Janne Parri: And then Webflow Source is coming and people are moving to a Astro and those static builds. I need to learn those. It would be nice if I knew some 3D 3D stuff and all all of that like on top of the content thing and everything. So yeah. Yeah, there's a lot to learn. As you said, in some parts, AI definitely makes it easier, but in some some aspects, it just puts puts on more more pressure. But that said, I do find all those like especially Webflow related AI things super interesting.

28:27Janne Parri: I have been talking with all the almost all the previous guests about like Webflow's future and the Source. I'm hoping we get our hands on Source sometime soon. But yeah, I'm excited, but at the same time, I feel the pressure.

28:43Derek Siu: Yeah, man. I'm glad you're excited. Yeah, man. I'm glad like Tim Ricks, you know, Tim Ricks, right? I feel like you should have him on. I feel like he's too busy. For those people who don't know, Tim Ricks is like I'll consider him like the GOAT, you know, like how Ronaldo's a goat of soccer or Messi or whatever, like of Webflow. And he's the one that actually got me started in Webflow with his tutorial. So, I really I really hope yeah, you get Tim Ricks on the podcast. Cuz he's I feel like he's carrying Webflow. I don't know, man. I'm not really into the politics of Webflow, but he recently joined the team. Have you heard of this? Yeah. Which is really cool. And then he's he's promoting Astro as well on his YouTube channel, which which I'll be I don't even know what that is when you mentioned it.

29:18Derek Siu: I don't even know what that is. Is that like a website builder or something? Different platform.

29:22Janne Parri: It's a they call it framework. So it's a framework for static static sites. That's my like understanding. And with the Source Source by Webflow, you can build like Astro sites. So I believe it's somewhat like open so it is not tied to any any any platform and that is something where Webflow kind of wants to get into like they have seen that people are trying out new stuff and Source is the answer for that they want to want to help build those static sites and Astro is one framework to do that and yeah Timothy Ricks I have asked him to come on the show last time I asked he said that he's a bit too busy But now that he has this Webflow role like an actual job and I believe he is a forward deployed engineer or something like that.

30:13Janne Parri: So he has this part of his job to go out and talk about this stuff. So maybe he could have some time. So Timothy if you are listening send me a message. I might send you one in a near future. But yeah, definitely that was a great play from from Webflow and I believe they also had this live stream demoing the Source probably last week or something and that was interesting interesting too. I'm not sure if you found that but there was Timothy, Matthew Munger and Katherine Grygo I believe demoing that.

30:50Janne Parri: So we got a little glimpse of what the Source might be.

30:55Derek Siu: You really know your people, eh? You really know the names. That's That's amazing. Good memory.

31:00Janne Parri: Yeah, Matthew. Matthew has been on the show and Katherine, I believe he had some sort of marketing or some sort of higher roles, but obviously I want to include all of all of them. So, no one gets gets left behind. But yeah, are you like excited about the Source and all the all the things that might come with Webflow in the future?

31:25Derek Siu: Yeah, to be very honest with you, Janne, I legit don't even know what Source is. I probably know the high level. I've read the updates, but if I remember correctly, please correct me if I'm wrong, it's something to do with Yeah, you don't have to be tied with Webflow and you can create assets and then you can use it outside of Webflow or something. See, I don't even know. I don't have the time to like research it. Yeah. Is that what it is?

31:48Janne Parri: Partly. Partly like that's probably the challenge with Source. Like it's so open that it's not easily explainable and it's not out yet. So it's just a research preview. So people are just like trying to figure it out and I believe Webflow is actively developing that. So they are trying to figure it out. So it's basically a desktop app and you can you can build well you can build websites as as you have but you can integrate all sorts of marketing like tools in there and they will have all sorts of agents like imagine that you have one agent for your site build one agent for let's say SEO work and one agent for security or maybe marketing and so on.

32:35Janne Parri: You can I believe you can bring in your own agents. You can you can import your classic Webflow site and that will be turned into Astro site or something something else like a static code base because they want to use that open open way of working with code base so that they can use those agents more natively. There has been a lot of talk about how AI is good at writing code but Webflow as we know it has this like abstraction layer.

33:11Janne Parri: So if we use the MCP the agent needs to read the read the Webflow thing then when they want to do the change they are not like writing HTML CSS they are writing or trying to make the edits in Webflow. So that's kind of like a layer that is not in existence when you are just building a static site. So that's the background for the Source but as I said it's not out yet. I believe someone has mentioned that it might come out in early 27 but no one knows for sure.

33:47Janne Parri: And one big question for Source is also the pricing. They haven't released anything on the pricing. So we do not know that about that yet.

33:58Derek Siu: There's one thing for sure. Webflow when I first started dude I don't know man they keep they like they release a lot of stuff man especially over the past two years in my channel. Not to cross-promote my channel, but I do these videos where every month or I try to I literally do a full video explaining every single update that Webflow has released and like I personally find it they're moving more into enterprise customers. I don't know if you agree with this but totally totally. Yeah. Like for example, you're mentioning Source, you're making you're mentioning like marketing teams, you're mentioning agents and agent from what I understand is like a robot. So, you don't even need a marketing team.

34:30Derek Siu: But the whole point is when I first started, maybe perhaps you were the same Janne is I was just servicing small businesses or yeah, small businesses who really don't need to manage their website. If they really want to, they can do it themselves, but not like a website where it's like enterprise where it's like a whole company and there's a whole department, five people who manages the website. You know what I mean? Like I see why Webflow is moving to that direction, but I personally find it they're leaving I mentioned in one of my videos, they're leaving the bottom feeders behind myself. Do you find that as well?

34:58Janne Parri: Totally. And you we are not alone with that. Like that has been the that has been like the direction and you can see it in the Webflow Conf like keynote. The main keynote was all about marketing stuff and then there was luckily the builder keynote like that was the keynote that previously was the main keynote and every every freelancer every builder was like excited about those those like features. So you're definitely not alone alone with that. I get why they are going going upstream and they have taken like VC money so they kind of have to do that.

35:34Derek Siu: Of course that

35:35Janne Parri: has been a big big discussion. I'm hopeful that us bottom feeders will still have a place in there some somewhere. But yeah, it's going going that way. And I have a kind of like another conflict in my brain like I had been kind of growing with Webflow like I started doing sites for small actual small businesses like maybe one person let's say a personal trainer or some something like that and now there's the sweet spot is somewhere there where the company has an actual marketing team and I believe Webflow is a good fit for them.

36:16Janne Parri: So, oh It's a it's a decision. If you want to want to focus on Webflow, you have to focus on the certain clients that Webflow is best for. So, if you want to do smaller sites for smaller businesses, there might be better better platforms for that. And maybe even to the enterprise side, there might be alternatives there, but I do not actually actually know those because I'm not on that level. Yeah. So another decision if you are doing like freelancing we're just

36:47Derek Siu: bottom feeders e that's a good point because I find the enterprise customers like what do you think about the recent PHP vulnerability? I don't know if you heard of that but I'm very sure Webflow was unaffected or at least I hope it was unaffected. I'm pretty sure it is unaffected. exactly. Which is a really good sell cuz I do have one or two clients who just mostly one who are pretty enterprise and they really care about their website and it's like it's good to know that Webflow updates the security all the time but I also one thought that I had in my head that I want to get your opinion on yan what do you think about a Webflow Lite version this is a Webflow back if you remember Webflow back in maybe 2022 all those functionalities like what if they just made that into into like a sister company And that's just that would just service like regular people because we just mentioned regular people like myself who service small businesses for example we don't need AEO we don't need Webflow Analyze we don't need all this AI MCP it's just not necessary so that's something I always considered in back of my head what if they made the Lite version L-I-T-E, Lite, Webflow Lite where it's just like

37:53Janne Parri: yeah and

37:53Derek Siu: it's a lot faster and there's no crazy functionalities but I'm sure Webflow has thought of that and there's a reason why they're not doing it perhaps because of the VC money

38:02Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. I believe that would be a useful tool and a good good idea. They are probably not just like focused on they do not see like money money in that and there are there might be some like alternatives and open open source things and so on. But the thing with open source is obviously that you have to tinker and stitch everything together. So that would be nice. And this kind of ties to the deprecation of the old editor if you remember.

38:32Derek Siu: Yes, I love that old editor. You're talking about the one where you send it to the client and it literally looks like the website and they can literally just click on top of the text and just text. Yeah, dude. The bottom bar with the Webflow logo. Yeah, I thought that was that was probably one of the main reason I love Webflow so much is because you can hand this off to a client and the client is not tech-savvy. But nowadays with the new editor, which I made a video on my YouTube channel, sorry for the self-plug, is it literally looks like the Webflow UI and while you get more functionalities, sometimes you don't need that functionality as a typical client.

39:06Derek Siu: You don't need to add components or change variables. It's just Yeah, I missed the old editor, man. I missed the old editor, man. I was really sad when they released when they sunseted that. I was really really sad, man. That was a big deal for me. Yeah.

39:19Janne Parri: Yeah. Me, too. Me, too. But there is the functionality is there. It's not like as simple, but I know that if there was a Webflow employee right here, they would say that Source will kind of like fix that. The premise of Source is also that you can build your own custom views like you can actually select what options are visible for what type of user. So if you have that one marketing manager and you know that they should now have access to most of the things you can put in just those things you want.

39:55Janne Parri: But at the at the same time if you use Source I believe you kind of have to migrate that Webflow site to the static build. So the Astros and such that's not ideal if you want to reap the benefits of the Webflow classic the Webflow that we know that bundles everything together. So there is a bit of stitching that needs to be done even with AI. Like right now I'm like doing my own sites with Astro with the with the static type of thing.

40:26Janne Parri: I'm using Claude to help help me with everything. But yeah, it's still a lot of work and I believe that's not like ideal for everyone. So I believe the Webflow as we know it still has has its place for most of the clients. Okay. I don't know where we where we started this thread from, but yeah. Do you do you feel tempted to try out another platforms?

40:53Derek Siu: Yeah, for sure. To be honest, it just seems pretty unstable. I'll still do Webflow as long as I can to be honest, but I generally do not know what the future holds. And like I say, I currently take it day by day. But something that I worry about is like you know WordPress, right? Like WordPress used to be Yeah, I think everyone know WordPress used to be the standard, you know, and it's still really good in certain senses, but for example, Webflow took over or Framer or whatever, but do you feel like there might be a stage where Webflow might not be a good fit anymore and then it'll be a different platform and then we have to learn that platform.

41:29Derek Siu: So, for sure, man. But it sounds really sad because I genuinely like Webflow. I'm not just saying that obviously, but I really like everything about Webflow. Like yeah I like learn cuz Webflow helped me to learn code to be very honest. I don't know if I don't know if you can relate. Yeah cuz I started as a designer or like I was experimenting with marketing post like graphic design. I did some animations as well but then I moved into web design and then after that we had to hand that design off to a developer who will code it in like HTML or code in WordPress. And then as a designer we're like so nitty-gritty about the details.

42:01Derek Siu: For example, how does this look like on mobile or how does this look like on a bigger screen? Like it just didn't look right when the developer coded it because of the screen resolution. I think that's the biggest misconception about web development is the fact that you have to understand how responsiveness work not just in mobile and desktop but different larger screens and stuff. So then my boss at the time who I really look up to when I was working in the full-time job he's like oh why don't we try out Webflow and stuff and then he took out his credit card and he invested Webflow and that's when I started to learn and that's when I discovered Tim Ricks and then that's when I'm like okay I'll give this a go and it was very hard cuz as designers right in Figma or I use Sketch we just drag where we want the things to be and I'm pretty sure there was an editor at the time called Wix where Wix you can literally ed you can drag the element where you want it to be.

42:48Derek Siu: I'm very sure that's not correct. Like I'm maybe they're using absolute positioning which is pretty funny, but you can't do that in web development. So like you had to learn the flexbox, the CSS grid, the padding. There's a lot of like self-knowledge to be honest. And Webflow isn't like an industry standard thing at the time at least. There was no real courses or anything. So when I saw Tim Ricks specifically, I don't know if you can relate, but there was a wizardry technique that he made. This guy really is the GOAT, but the wizardry technique was essentially not using pixels, but using viewport width. So it really scales between different break points like a 13-inch MacBook when you look at the hero section will look identical to a 1920 x 1080 monitor and then so forth because it's using viewport width.

43:27Derek Siu: So that really helped me and then I slowly just kept learning and then I guess you would agree that like all this learning it has to equate to something like it's still the fundamental CS CSS and box model. So if there is another platform outside of Webflow in the future, I'm pretty sure it still has to follow those standard and design is universal as in I don't think web design is going to there's a hero section, there's a copy, there's a button. It's pretty much the same premise. So whatever the new platform is, I guess I at least I hope that I can transition to that new platform.

43:58Derek Siu: So I'm definitely open and also to be very honest as as a freelancer and not knowing what to expect and I said I didn't plan this life. I didn't know I'll end up here. Who knows where we'll both be in 5 years. Maybe we'll both resign from Webflow and maybe we'll do full-time content creation. We just don't know. Hey,

44:14Janne Parri: yeah, we're going to we're going to be content machines. We're going to shoot over like the Chris Dos and have millions millions subscribers and so on. Yeah.

44:24Derek Siu: Yeah. You just don't know. And we both grew up with the internet. Let's be honest, right? This was never a career ever in the past. It was never a career. Internet's new, mobile phones new, Webflow was definitely new. I think it was released in 2018 if I remember correct or something like that. It's all new. This is all new, man. Do you do you get excited? Do you get scared about this?

44:45Janne Parri: Both. Both. Definitely both. Like I share the anxiety of like new new platforms and I do wish the world would be so simple that I would I would be able to continue doing Webflow sites until I retire, but that's probably not the not the case. On the on the platforms it's obviously like the question of who is this good for Webflow has been changing the target kind of end user has been changing as we have talked so there might be might be good platforms for smaller clients for enterprise maybe Webflow will be the enterprise choice the best option for there like I believe Nathan Huening has been on the show he was recently on the on the Finsweet Spot show he mentioned Webflow has had like some record-breaking sales months right now.

45:37Janne Parri: Even though there are a lot of talk about like the static static sites, but to mention the learnings like the box model, CSS, HTML, those will definitely move move straight into the static things. And maybe maybe you do not even have to have to remember those if you just use AI. And

46:00Derek Siu: you think AI can Yeah. You think AI can just like you can just type something and be like code this website but the AI will still have to use CSS and box model. Correct. But you're saying

46:10Janne Parri: yeah it will I'm like thinking right now it will definitely be helpful if you know those those like concepts but in the future maybe AI is so good that you need to know even less. It's kind of reassuring if you know those. But let's let's imagine that you do 5 years of work with AI and you never hit upon an issue. So you would be quite confident that you can you can keep moving forward with the AI even without the knowledge of all the underlying things.

46:49Janne Parri: So that's that's what I'm thinking.

46:51Derek Siu: Yeah. So, you think, just to clarify, you probably think that in the future with how AI is going, do you think you'll have the ability to type in literally to AI chatbot saying, "Create me an award award with three W's like that award-winning website, hit enter, and it literally can create an award. You'll win awards for that." Do you think you'll reach that stage? Like mobile, animations, different resolutions. It do all the copy correct. If you change the copy, somehow it has to know that it's not going to break the design if you add too much copy on the hero section. You think you'll get there cuz I can see it but it's hard to imagine.

47:25Janne Parri: Yeah, there's there's this subjective thing what kind of sites will win the awards. I believe well let's let's assume that AI will get better. Right now it feels like developers get a lot more benefits out of AI than designers. But I would imagine that even the design side will get better and we will become more like what are those roles? Creative yeah creative manager or some sort of art director. Yeah, that's the one I was I was looking for just doing the designs.

48:01Janne Parri: But if the awards submissions are full of those AI created sites, I would imagine some of them need to need to arise to win the awards. I believe this is just my hunch. Yeah, I'm not like bas I'm not like basing this on any any like actual data or information, but I have a feeling that for quite quite a long time like the combination of human and machine will come on top. I'm not sure if there will be a time that just the AI, just the machine will do better, but for some sometime there is a benefit of having the human in there some somewhere.

48:44Janne Parri: So yeah, that's that's my prediction. What about you?

48:48Derek Siu: What you what you were saying a thought came into my head like if you look at like a video like to create videos like what we're doing now, we're creating videos. Why can't the AI like eventually literally do everything? Like right now I'm not a I'm not a human being. I'm an AI. And then you can't even tell the difference between AI videos and regular videos. Right? So then what happens? It gets to a stage where you can't tell the difference between an AI website and a regular website. Nowadays we can tell, right? Because as designers maybe we can see they're always using the Inter font. They have this like line thing between the text. But what if it what if it gets to the point where you literally cannot tell that's an AI website and then people are just generating it.

49:22Derek Siu: You know what I mean? That's something scares me. And if that's the case, then everyone can do it. And I feel like the art director isn't even needed anymore perhaps if it reaches that type of level. You know what I mean? Dude, it's

49:36Janne Parri: that is. Yeah. And I guess it's on that stage with code. Obviously, there's the security issues, but like no one cares if the code has been written with AI. I at least I feel like it. But when we do designs especially if we get to the let's say like illustrations and such we do care that a human has done that there's some some type of value there but with code if there is that value it's lesser like maybe especially with let's say marketing sites like AI can in the future do that and we are not we're not able to like differentiate with human-made and AI And at that point like why should humans do those things like I believe many of us do not get excited about doing the average sites and if the average is something that is average in the future like something that has been like top 1% in the past but that's the new average why should we get excited about that we want to do something that is a bit different so yeah I do not know where that leaves us as the actual builders.

50:49Janne Parri: Maybe we do need to do something different. I don't know if you checked out the Flux Academy video about how the development is shrinking and people need to move towards design or the marketing role. So doing the design strategy or like the maintenance and marketing and optimization and stuff. So what do you think of that idea?

51:12Derek Siu: You said Flux Academy, the YouTube channel by Ran Segall. And now with the guy from Flow Ninja, Milo, I forget his name. Milo, he's mish. Uroš, that's the one. Yeah, he seems like a really cool dude. He you're saying that they're saying that Webflow development from what I'm hearing is almost like don't even bother learning it like more move into design and design strategy. Is that what you said?

51:33Janne Parri: Yeah, they almost almost like that. They didn't say that don't don't learn Webflow. If you are doing just Webflow development that is kind of like shrinking and I believe Timothy also said that yeah it has been changing but he believes that there will be there will be a need for that technical role but what that will look in the future but maybe the Webflow part will be a tiny thing but to fill a full-time role you kind of need to add something there so that's kind of the same same premise that ran had with the Flux Academy video that there are two clear ways right now that you might be moving towards if you are just a Webflow developer.

52:17Janne Parri: You can do more of the design side or more of the marketing and what comes after the publish thing.

52:24Derek Siu: Damn, that's interesting, man. Yeah, that scares me. It's kind of like it's forcing us all to pick a pick a role and like it's depreciating the developer role. Obviously, I'm quite sad about that because I generally like Webflow development more than design because in design, while I like design, I personally find in design in a business sense, it's too open to creativity and it's too subjective. So, what you might think looks good, the client might not think looks what's good. And that's when you have revisions. And when revisions get involved, it's like you have to think about the business side, how much you charge for your time.

52:57Derek Siu: Whereas development, I find like because design is done, it's like you just charge and just there's no open to interpretation. You just do it. So, it's kind of really sad that it's no longer going to be a thing in the future perhaps and we'll be moving on to like this director role. Yeah, man. It's Yeah, it's honestly very unpre unprecedented times. Like I said earlier, my views are like this is all new, man. We're going to understand that unless you're born in this generation, everything is very new and I don't really know where it's going to hold to be honest. And I just I just hope it all works out. And yeah, man.

53:27Derek Siu: That's Yeah, that's a tough one, man. That's a tough one. I have no opinions really. Yeah.

53:32Janne Parri: Yeah, I'm I have mixed feelings because for a couple of years, I was actually moving towards just doing those Webflow development projects. I cut down on the design side and right now I'm thinking that okay maybe I should do the design and I feel feel the same same pain like design is subjective like it development is so great because it either works or it doesn't and that's it but design yeah as you said there's those revisions and so on but I do feel that design is also a bigger challenge so if you actually master that challenge if you if you can create this authority that the client actually trusts you and you say client X that is a bad opinion let's go with my choice maybe maybe with a bit of politeness there somewhere but yeah if you get to that point it would be kind of cool and I don't know this might be a superficial thing but I kind of feel that design is some somehow like maybe more respected or in a gen general thing like there is this magical thing that okay you're a creative person you do design and you are able to able to like work with clients on creative matters that's something that not everybody can do so that's kind of pulling me towards it but I also believe that if you want to be like the technical person yeah you can do that obviously there's like depth in all the all the technology that runs the world like imagine just being the guy who who knows all the security risks with vibe coded sites and maybe even apps and so on.

55:13Janne Parri: So that would definitely be a thing thing in the future. But I do agree that if you and me do just like Webflow development that might not take us too far in the future.

55:27Derek Siu: That's wise. Yeah. And that's a business like perspective. You have to think about the long term like you mentioned. Should I focus on design rather than development? Yeah. This is this is choices we have to make. Yeah. I can see that. Yeah, I can see that.

55:40Janne Parri: Yeah, I Yeah, we should we should have this more often like this sort of like peer peer coaching session or something something like that. Yeah.

55:49Derek Siu: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I find it Yeah. Like I said again, I find it when you work for a company, let's just say you work for a Webflow agency, that Webflow agency, the owners, they take care of all this stuff. So you're just a Webflow developer and then they have the goals of for example what you mentioned transitioning from Webflow developers reducing that number and increasing designers you know what I mean and then as an employee you're like okay am I going to hopefully get migrated to the next department or I don't have the skills enough to go to that so I don't know that's what it reminds me of there's a lot of pros and cons and a lot of decision- making it's sometimes I struggle with what choices to make and sometimes I wish maybe I should just work for a company and they can just tell me what to do and it'll be it'll be stable but I feel like companies are stable but at the same time they're unstable as well cuz we just don't know what's going to happen.

56:39Janne Parri: Yeah, definitely. Especially with all the tech layoffs and such like I think think of that think of that option too like what if I just had an in-house role or an agency role. I believe you have been doing this probably over seven years or something something like that. So we both have tasted the like freedom. So, it's kind of hard to go back into that sort of role where you're where you're like building someone else's business and so on.

57:09Janne Parri: And I have had many agency owners on the show and I'm just like imagining like if we as a one person business are like stressed out about this. What if you have like 10 10 employees and you have to make the payroll every month and then there's this uncertainty on the field in the field like that must be quite

57:32Derek Siu: crazy quite nerve-wracking. Yeah. Yeah. The guy from Flow Ninja his name what's his name again? The Flow Ninja. Uroš Mikić. Yeah. Yeah, I listened to his story on Flux I think and he's so young and the fact that he has a number one of the top agencies in Webflow I think he won the award as well and then he's so young and then he had to get all this team all this business knowledge and now he's running a team was a whole department you're and he mentioned he was depressed and he was stressed and they had to pay the financial I could not imagine I think that's a very specific person that can do that and I personally find it I don't know if you agree if you were to do it properly it's a very sacrificial role as and you have to put others before yourself.

58:11Derek Siu: Whereas people might see it as glorified. Oh, look at this CEO guy. He's oh, he has he drives a BMW. He's so great, etc. But in reality, it's a very sacrificial role. You have to think about your employees before you before they think about their own future. You have to think about their future and you have to take the responsibility of not letting them go and supporting them when things are tough. Dude, that's that's another skill set, man. So, I really look up to that guy. And yeah, man. I just I also cannot imagine what it would be like cuz you interview these agency owners. Like, we just don't know, man. But yeah man it must be very tough. Yeah

58:41Janne Parri: totally totally and obviously if you start as a freelancer and you decide that now you want to start building an agency that's a total like different thought. You will be the manager and you will have to do the hiring and all the HR stuff and plan for the future and so on. I guess bigger is better and that's why people are like drawn to that route. But I'm not sure if agency building is best for everybody. Like I believe people can like build good freelancing business type of lifestyle businesses.

59:17Janne Parri: I think they call it like just having a good good lifestyle working for yourself.

59:22Derek Siu: Yeah. I think I mentioned this in my business and freelance course. The whole point of a business one of the main goals is to increase revenue. So when you scale and you create a new agency, I'm imagining the whole point of doing that or one of the biggest incentive is to increase your revenue to get more pockets to fund your lifestyle. But like Chris Do says, that's why I like Chris Do all profit derives from risk. So these agency owners are like taking more risk because they have to manage these people and if it goes south, they will lose a lot more than like a freelancer. If it goes south, it's just like, oh, it's just me.

59:53Derek Siu: But for them, it's like them, their employees, their families, all their reputation. That's why they get paid the big bucks, I guess. So, it's definitely not for everyone, man. Would would you ever start an agency? Just curious. Do you have plans or you're going to do freelancing?

1:00:05Janne Parri: I actually tried tried to hire an employee a couple

1:00:09Derek Siu: or just contract. Yeah. Full-time.

1:00:12Janne Parri: I believe it was like two years ago or something something like that. He the guy was great and he was doing basically the same thing that I was doing. And I knew him because I taught a course on Webflow. So I knew that he could do the job but it came down on sales. Basically I was not able to sell enough for provide for both of us. And then there was like summer coming and in Finland we have quite quite generous vacation time by law.

1:00:45Janne Parri: So I knew I calculated that okay I'm not going to be able to make payroll if we go like off for the summer. So yeah, that was a something that I tried. Maybe if that would have worked out. If I would have been able to like sell enough projects, maybe I would be an agency owner right now. But that was something totally different. As I said, that's a totally different like job and lot lot more pressure because you are responsible for someone else's income.

1:01:22Janne Parri: So yeah, it was a hectic time and I'm not planning to try that again anymore. I do feel that it would be beneficial if I could like decouple my like earnings, the revenue out of my like work hours. So that's basically where the content comes in. So if I would be able to bring in revenue with the content, that would basically do it. As we talked it's a it's a difficult

1:01:53Derek Siu: long-term game you have to yeah put a lot of effort into upfront. Yeah, man. And yeah, like you said, I it's cool that you tried that as well with the agency and it's cool that you acknowledge that it's one million% a diff completely different skill set. And one thing as Chris Do said as well, it's not unique as in like you were managing employee for a Webflow business, but that skill that you had doing that with calculating payroll is just translates to any business if you sell socks and stuff definitely different skill. I personally find it I don't know if you found it, I'd love to get your ideas when you hired that person, did you sometimes find it hard to let go?

1:02:26Derek Siu: Because I'm imagining you used to do the work and when you start out as a freelancer perhaps you started out because you really love doing the work. You genuinely love doing the work but then you have to learn all these business skills and you alluded when you hired this person. It seemed to me like you're not doing the work anymore but you're just giving the work to him. Did you miss doing the work and was it hard to let go of like this is the quality that I would do then I have to trust this guy. You know what I mean? Did you did you find that? I love to get your thoughts.

1:02:51Janne Parri: Not let's say not as much as I would I would have predicted. Maybe because I did have a lot a lot on my plate. So the guy had his own like project that he was working on. I had my own own project simultaneously and there was probably couple more coming in and I needed to do all the systems for supporting a two-man operation. And then I needed to do the sales thing. That eventually didn't didn't go so well.

1:03:23Janne Parri: But anyways, like the guy was so good that I didn't need to check that work so much. So in a way that was a good thing. So I kind of see the temptation well not temptation but the pull towards like building systems and building agencies. I believe like people people get excited about that. So if you get just imagine that you are building a kind of like money machine, a scalable machine, you are doing all of those systems like you mentioned Notion and so people get excited about those and that's probably a good good thing for an agency owner or someone wanting to build a business.

1:04:04Janne Parri: So yeah, do you do you feel tempted to try try something like that yourself?

1:04:09Derek Siu: I'll be No, not really to be honest. No, not really. Cuz I used to work in the full-time job and I really looked up to my ex- boss as I said and he was the CEO level. He was managing the business in market in the design company for example, but he also had multiple businesses and the fact that he has to wear many hats and it really seemed like it's a very sacrificial role. I keep coming back to that. So it sounds cool and stuff but really it's so stressful and I think it takes a lot out of you and so pro probably not to be honest. Probably not unless Yeah.

1:04:40Derek Siu: Yeah, but I don't know what the future holds, but it's a lot of work, man. And I recently hired a video editor and then and then I hired him one one time. It was a friend of a friend and then I invested all this time to brief him on the video to meet him in person and then and then I personally found it that in order to do all that, you have to transfer the knowledge and then that time to transfer the knowledge, I could have just done it myself. I could have just edited the video myself, but I you have to let that go when you delegate. And I think the biggest thing is it's an investment which has risk.

1:05:12Derek Siu: So in your case that you just mentioned Janne, this guy turned out really well. So good, good for you. But the reality is it might not have turned out well. It could have been really bad. You would have had to maybe review his work multiple times. Maybe you would have had to let him go. Maybe it would have ruined your business reputation. Like this is all risk. And I think something that we need to think about as well, I think with your agency, I'm not sure what you call it, but for mine it's like under my name because that's the easiest business company to set up like a sole trader in Australia. You put it your name. So it's weird when you hire someone to work for your name.

1:05:43Derek Siu: Whereas in a company or agency, it's just called something random like McDonald's. You know what I mean? They don't really know the CEO of McDonald's. So there's a identity dissociation. I find it. But yeah, man. I just I just think about the sacrifice it takes to be a true leader, to be a true CEO that puts the people first. Of course, we live in a wicked world and I'm sure there's CEOs who really don't care about the employees, but to do it correctly is something something different and I think the skills that you get from that is 1,000% transferable in any businesses. That's something that's something I do like learning about.

1:06:16Derek Siu: And I think you alluded the systems that people make like Notion or like when you send an invoice, what software is that? I think that is that is the engine to be honest because that's the most important thing. Every company I feel like will have a really good system and a system is really important because sometimes you want to sell your company or sometimes you don't want to be in the company you can just hire someone to take your place and there's a system for that cuz if you work in a company really now that I think about it the company always should have the employees and I know it sounds really bad but the company should have the employees replaceable for whatever reason they're injured or you want to fire them.

1:06:52Derek Siu: I know it sounds really bad, but really just a number and they should easily replace you and you follow a standard operating procedure. I see the benefit of that as well. And I know it sounds crazy, but yeah, that's that's how I see stuff.

1:07:03Janne Parri: Yeah, totally. Totally. That's the beauty of a bigger company. You can like replace people. Although it would be beautiful if everyone would like to stay there, but that's not the reality. But that kind of relates to the agency name or is your company in your own own name? And I believe that going towards the future with all the AI AI stuff and content out there like personal brands will be even more like valuable like just actual humans like voicing their opinions.

1:07:38Janne Parri: I believe that is something that will stay stay relevant and that's kind of the thing like if you if you have your company in your own name that's kind of good because you are accountable but if you know that you at some point you want to exit that you want to sell the company you are probably not going to use your own name so that's kind of a big decision you have to make when you are starting out so that tough but I do believe in personal brands and I would love to hear your opinion on the personal brand.

1:08:11Janne Parri: I believe you are building your own own brand. So, how do you how do you like see that?

1:08:18Derek Siu: Yeah, for sure, man. I Yeah, I agree. I think there's a huge benefit of doing a personal brand and I really like how you identified as a personal brand and then there's like a company corporate brand. I think most people start off with a personal brand. I think it's the easiest way to start it. Yeah. And I see a lot of value in the sense that if you do get an audience, for example, in subscribers on YouTube, which I personally don't think matters as much as like 10 years ago, but if you have like an audience on YouTube or your audience on your personal brand, there's a lot you can do with that. I see so much value in it. Like I mentioned earlier, you can do partnership deals, you can do promoting your own products or services, you can get ad rev on YouTube, but it takes a lot of work.

1:08:56Derek Siu: A lot of work. We both know, you probably know more than me cuz you have to edit this 2-hour podcast. Like you have to cut it, you have to get SEO optimized titles. You put meta description. You have to schedule it in certain times. You have to look at trends. You have to make sure the algorithm is correct. It's literally a full-time job. And that's why I guess these content creators like that's all they do. And I'm sure they have a team around it as well. I definitely see the value. One thing that I do kind of scared me personally at this stage is like putting myself out there too much. I know it sounds contradictory, but you were kind of talking about earlier before we recorded this how you might want to keep some of your personal stuff, like your personal life outside of the online life, but sometimes I personally find it's very hard to draw the line.

1:09:36Derek Siu: Some people do it really well. Tim Ricks and a few other people like Pate Digital or the people from Finsweet, you don't really know about their personal life. But in order to create a really good personal brand, like sometimes you have to release these personal details. And while it may sound cool, who knows in 5 years it could be used as evidence against you or maybe your views change five years later like you have to sacrifice that part of you in order to gain a following in this sense. So there's pros and cons, man. Yeah. And you have to be willing to put yourself out there as well on the internet. Not everyone is willing to do that.

1:10:08Derek Siu: And not everyone, for example, is confident talking in front of a camera, although you can get the skill.

1:10:13Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. That's a that's definitely a decision everyone has to make but it's usually clear to people who are talking about some subject matter. Let's say we're talking about Webflow like it's easy for us to draw the line that okay we will be talking about Webflow Webflow alter alternatives and not like let's say our family lives or anything like that but if you are let's say some lifestyle influencer obviously like the personal stuff and the hardships and let's say relationships will be very very tempting to put online because those are probably the ones that get most attraction.

1:10:55Janne Parri: But I feel like with sub subject matter that's easier to draw the line and obviously it's also more more niche stuff. But there is always that decision you have to make that are you are you going to go for the views and put in some personal stuff or are you going to just stick it to your lane and do that like professionally or something something like that. But that is a decision for every everyone doing this thing.

1:11:23Derek Siu: And there's a cap as well. For example, the Webflow YouTube channel, there's only a certain amount of people who are interested in Webflow. Just like with the podcast that you're doing, Webflow and friends, it implies Webflow. So there's only niche where I feel like if you do the lifestyle thing, personal brand perhaps these influencers, I don't know if you follow Clavicular or IShowSpeed or whatever that those type of people, they put their whole life 24/7. That's that's another like that's more audience or celebrities Ariana Grenade and Ariana Grenade. Not Grenade Grande and like Yeah.

1:11:55Derek Siu: Yeah. Yeah. I keep saying Grenade and then all these film stars and stuff, you know? Like it's something to consider, man. Yeah. I feel like there's just so much possibility in the generation that we live. Like there's so much opportunities, but sometimes I feel like cuz there's so much opportunities that I end we end up making no decision or that like you just keep getting pulled in by the idea, but not actually taking any action. You know what I mean? I think taking totally. Yeah.

1:12:17Janne Parri: And I have to be honest, I had been thinking of doing a more general show about something else than Webflow. I like the niche niche thing of this show. Like it's super clear what we are talking about and what type of people are the guests on the show. So it is always this balance how niche you want to go. If you want to compete, you have to be the best alternative for someone. So that points you towards the niche. But if you want to like gather a huge following, obviously you have to be in some sort of generalist with the topics.

1:12:53Janne Parri: So I am thinking of doing doing something something a bit more general, but for the time being, I like this show. It's been going for a while. I have some some folks that I want to talk talk with. Timothy Ricks being one of one of them. So

1:13:11Derek Siu: please get them on. Yeah.

1:13:13Janne Parri: Yeah, maybe maybe there comes a time I have had Tim Tim and some some other big names from the Webflow sphere and I do not see any mountains to climb on anymore. So that might be a place where I pivot towards something something else. But I got to say this has been a great great thing that although it hasn't brought in any revenue I believe there has not been like actual clients maybe some inquiries through the through the show but all all the same like all the conversations themselves even with like zero views have definitely been worth it like this one I love to have this kind of peer coaching session with you just even without the recording on.

1:14:01Janne Parri: So, so it has been great.

1:14:03Derek Siu: No, it's cool. You're very transparent and I'm sure you've you've met you now know how to do podcasts. I don't know if you know how to do it before, but you're learning this new skill and your network, man. Your network, the people from Webflow team and stuff now. You have their contact details. They know of you. And to be honest, when you first reached out to me, I think it was on LinkedIn, which I rarely check. I think a podcast is a great business technique. Not saying that you should do everything for business sake, but it really lowered my guard. It allows the person a chance to talk. It allows them to promote their own stuff. And then just by giving that opportunity, I now want to help you out.

1:14:34Derek Siu: You know what I mean? Like it's a it's a thing. It's a it's a good way to get your foot in the door, I feel like. So I really admire what you do and congratulations on 52 episodes and stuff. And when I was listening to some of your stuff, especially with the official people that work in Webflow, I'm like, "Wow, you can do that? I didn't know you could do that." And I'm like, "Yeah, you inspire me to make a podcast to be honest." But we discussed this whole podcast is like you got to pick a you got to manage your time well. So got to think about that as well. Yeah. So I rather Yeah,

1:15:01Janne Parri: we kind of have to we kind of have to land this play at some point. But I can I can give you some some tips because I believe this is kind of a growth hack. Like this is the only way I can produce like consistent content. And it's kind of way easier than scripting, filming, and editing a traditional YouTube video. Although it's totally different like medium and so on. But yeah, we could definitely talk talk about that. But I believe we're closing closing into our scheduled time.

1:15:34Janne Parri: So we do need to end this at some point. Before the last weird section that might come as a surprise for you. If people want to check you out, maybe contact you, where should they go?

1:15:47Derek Siu: Yeah, you can check me out on my website, dereksiu.com.au. That's D-E-R-E-K-S-I-U dot com dot AU. You can also check out my YouTube channel where I release Webflow tutorials and all things to do with Webflow. That's Derek Siu AU. I'm sure you'll link it in the description. Please kindly thank you so much and I also have some courses as well like a freelance business course which I'm really proud of which I talk about the stuff that we mentioned in this podcast the deeper stuff that perhaps a freelancer who is focused on their skills don't know or not aware of and I also have a Webflow course but those are the main ways you can reach out on my website and on my YouTube channel so just want to thank you again for allowing me to be in your podcast yan I really would love to have you on my channel yeah

1:16:33Janne Parri: beautiful let's make that happen and I will obviously put the links in the description and we probably will do that collaboration thing. So, you might see two little profile pictures in the in the channel channel place right there. But, okay, Derek, do you have any idea what the last section is about?

1:16:53Derek Siu: No. Unless you sent it by email, I do not know.

1:16:57Janne Parri: No, no, no, I didn't because that's a section for the dedicated listeners. This is kind of like the deep end. This is a funny little Finnish section. Finnish as a language of Finland. No worries. This is nothing to be afraid of. What follows is that I will give you a Finnish saying. I will translate that into English. It's usually something weird and your job is to guess what that means. Is that clear so far?

1:17:27Derek Siu: Yes. Yes. I actually heard of this in one of your interviews as well, but yeah. Please, please.

1:17:33Janne Parri: Beautiful. Beautiful. So yeah, you're saying, let me check it out. Firstly, in Finnish it is lyödä viisaat päät yhteen. And in English it is to smash wise heads together. So what does it mean if I say to you that we need to smash our wise heads together?

1:17:52Derek Siu: That's amazing. It reminds me of a Bible quote, iron sharpens iron. Does it mean two people when they come together, they grow even further? They use both their brains in order to have a third brain.

1:18:03Janne Parri: That is yeah that's the that's the gist of it. Like it's maybe a bit down to earth maybe a bit like simpler that it usually means that we just have to think to together kind of like what we have been doing throughout this podcast like we bumped or smashed our heads together. So yeah it's simple as that. So, you got it right. And I must say that these are sometimes so weird that just a handful of guests have got this right. So, this is this is something to almost be a proud of.

1:18:35Janne Parri: I don't know if you want to put that on your CV.

1:18:39Derek Siu: I'll change my YouTube bio right now. I'll change it. I've never heard of that to be honest. Smash two heads together. That's that's interesting. Yeah,

1:18:47Janne Parri: it's a it's a Finnish thing and it is just something I need to do for every episode to root our little country up north. But okay, Derek, thanks so much for being on the show and for all the listeners and watchers. So, we'll see you in the next one. Bye.

1:19:08Derek Siu: See you guys.