Webflowers Should TakeVibe Coding Seriously

0:31Janne Parri: Okay, Julian. So you recently appeared on flux Academy's YouTube channel basically describing how Memberstack migrated from Webflow to a wipe-coded marketing site. That is not the only video about that topic you have made, but that got quite a lot of comments and those comments were kind of a mix of excitement and some real unease. I feel that people are really wrestling with this thing and topic. How do you see the discussion around that video and the topic in general?

1:05Julian Galluzzo: I the discussion as something that I really understand all sides. Just to start, here's the thing. I have been building websites since like 2015. I have been a Webflow developer since like 2018, 2019. I have spent so much time and so much of my effort on building this skill as you have, as these people commenting have. And so when we see that AI tools are coming around and are able to do these things that we have spent so long learning, perfecting and getting better at, it is scary and we immediately want to deny the possibility. At the same time, I understand that there are so many people, whatever you want to call them, let's say AI grifters who just

1:58Julian Galluzzo: Kind of try to act like everyone's cooked, no one has a job, AI is gonna take everything, just pack up your stuff and go home now. And it's easy to see someone saying, this AI thing that I did is good and confuse it with that. So I understand the, I guess, feelings behind any sort of negative comments behind that. I understand it. And that's something that in a big way, the community pushing AI has created by having so many clickbaity things. That being said, this is not that. I do not

2:34Julian Galluzzo: Make money off of trying to tell people that AI is the best thing in the world. In fact, I make money off of people thinking that Webflow is the best thing in the world. I am not incentivized to say otherwise. Now, of course, we're building another product right now that hopefully makes it so, you know, for me it's a win-win either way. That being said, I think really what you have right now in our community is that our community is in the Webflow community. It's really fragmenting, for the most part, into two big camps. One of these camps is saying, Webflow's done, stop using Webflow, AI is the future, if you're not using it, you're not gonna have any money. And on the other side, you have the group of people who say AI is a fad, everything with AI is slop, and all that. But...

3:22Julian Galluzzo: The truth, think, undeniably is somewhere in the middle. And that is what I think people need to discuss, people need to be real about, and people need to stop being in denial about so that we can move forward as a community, as professionals with what we're doing. So one thing that I just find hilarious is, and this has been the case for the longest time, since I started making AI-related videos about a year year and a half ago is you will do something such as migrate your entire marketing site and you will explain how it's so easy for everyone to edit and how you know the SEO is doing better and all this such as how I did in that flux video and you will still have people in the comments saying things like no one's gonna be able to edit that it's not gonna rank on Google which like this level of denial is absurd like if I'm directly telling you and showing you proof that this happened and this is real

4:19Julian Galluzzo: You know, how are we still denying it is the question. So I think there's a lot of directions that I can I can head in with my rambling from here, but really that's what I think. I think we're in a very fragmented time where our community, our industry is kind of splitting into two camps. And I think we all need to just get a bit more realistic on both sides and understand that the truth is in the middle. And if we can do that, perhaps we can start having more productive ⁓ conversations rather than conversations that are rooted in either I'm a Webflow developer and I'm scared for my income or I'm building an AI product and I want everyone to buy my product. You know I feel like that's motivation behind both

5:01Julian Galluzzo: Sides right now which is wrong. It should be you know we're professionals, we're creatives, we all want to you know do good work and keep making money. ⁓ How are we doing that with this rapid... There's been no more interesting time to work in technology than right now. And I think rather than fighting and starting these factions of people who are against each other, we should all be trying to enjoy it together with our diverse perspectives.

5:24Janne Parri: Beautiful. Yeah. Hopefully this will be the one, productive conversation on the internet. And yeah, I get the same feeling that we are dealing with a lot of, uncertainty, like, yeah, this is the most interesting time to work on these things, but at the same time, this might be the most like stressful time to work with those. And, everybody would like to have a clear picture of the future, but that is just not the case like before we started recording you mentioned that ⁓ flux published another video kind of because of the backslash ⁓ and I would imagine it's quite hard for flux to like navigate this thing because obviously it would be nice to just do more Webflow

6:10Janne Parri: Related stuff like the master class and build on that. But there's a huge risking that wouldn't you think so.

6:20Julian Galluzzo: Yep, and that's kind of the case with everyone. That's the case with us at Memberstack. That's the case with flux. That's the case with, you know, I'm sure a lot of people watching this are Webflow agency owners or freelancers who've built their brands around Webflow and ⁓ there is a lot of risk on both sides. On the one side, if you want to just put on your blinders like a horse and look forward and think that everything is the same and this is all gonna pass this by. ⁓ I think you're in for a very, very rude awakening, but at the same time, when something is doing good for you, when something is making you money, you know, things don't change that quick. There is zero future in which I can see, you know, you're done, you're never gonna be able to make money from Webflow again. Look, 30 years down the road, 40 years down the road, I don't know, but like we're talking, you know, one, two, three, four, five, 10 years ahead and...

7:13Julian Galluzzo: For that, I think what people need to understand is like, people are still making money building Drupal sites. Know, people are definitely making money building WordPress sites. I like WordPress more than most people in the Webflow community, but anyways, besides the point, I think that is probably the most productive thing to start with to, I guess, let's say, heal us as a community is just everyone come together and say, guys, don't be so scared. If you're a Webflow freelancer, you're a Webflow agency, your income is not going anywhere. Even if Webflow doesn't pivot as a product, you have a long time to figure out what's going on. Don't be scared. The business that you've built isn't going anywhere. And with that being said, where do we go from here? Because...

7:58Julian Galluzzo: You know a year ago. I think I speak for a lot of people when I say this someone said where should I build a website? Webflow was my 100 answer except for certain use cases that's not the case anymore. I don't know how often I could really say I would be recommending it and how often I wouldn't but one thing I can say for sure is it's no longer the option, you know a year ago when I had someone saying I want to get in into tech I want to start doing what you do making websites. Whatever it may be. I'd say here's Webflow Here's how you learn it. Once you learn it, you're gonna be good. You're gonna have a job you're gonna make money. I don't know if I'd recommend that to people anymore ⁓ again not to be like Webflow is dead you're never gonna make money from Webflow. It's not true. It's just how well positioned is Webflow for the future? I don't ⁓ know ⁓

8:48Julian Galluzzo: Perhaps.

8:50Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, that is the thing. That's the like uncertainty, but we will get to the use cases and all the alternatives and such, but we have to do little intros before we dive any deeper. So my name is Janne Parri and you are listening to Webflow and Friends podcast. My guest today is Julian Galluzzo. ⁓ As we discussed, ⁓ you might know him from his appearance on Flux Academy's channel, ⁓ but Julian basically runs the Memberstack YouTube channel Julian also does the developer relations at Memberstack. And if you haven't heard of Memberstack, it's basically an app that lets you

9:30Janne Parri: Add membership functionalities to your website. ⁓ In the past, Julian has also done freelancing. He has co-founded an agency. So Julian has perspective and experience on all sides of the table. So this will definitely be interesting. ⁓ So Julian, I want to get to the nitty gritty of the Memberstack rebuild. But before that, how and when did you start doing more of those AI and development sort of stuff?

9:57Julian Galluzzo: Well, let me take a step back and my story is a funny one and I'm gonna try to not dwell on it for too long. However, I've been building things on the internet since I was a kid. Like when I was like eight or nine years old, I started just building stuff in Roblox and then I was like, I can sell this and make money. One thing led to another and my goal was basically just, I want to... Something online. I want to be able to work remote and so got into UX design and then started making sites for clients using basically anything Webflow or not Webflow. Sorry. Wix, Squarespace WordPress, whatever I could I was using it and then I ended up co-founding an agency with someone and very very quickly my co-founder at the time showed me this thing called Webflow and this was in 2018 and I got hooked and I got hooked for a very

10:48Julian Galluzzo: Simple reason. I was balancing two different stacks. I had my WordPress clients and I had my Wix and Squarespace clients. The Wix and Squarespace clients basically very easy, very snappy, great for getting a simple site set up. Once they needed more, I was stuck. WordPress, limitless, but a real pain to set up and so naturally anyone who knows Webflow probably knows where I'm going with this. I tried Webflow and I was like easy to get set up and running there's a learning curve but once you learn it you can do things very quickly and most importantly I can build real professional work for my clients where i'm not going to feel like i'm limited so that was in 2018 and since then the agency that I was running at the time that transitioned into a complete Webflow agency I ended up leaving that agency working for another agency being a freelancer but this entire time from 2018 up until I mean now

11:45Julian Galluzzo: We could say and my career has been focused on Webflow again because I love Webflow, but I love Webflow because it allowed me to ⁓ do good professional work for my clients ⁓ in a reasonable amount of time. I like moving fast. I'm all about efficiency. So ⁓ naturally, ⁓ when AI started to pop up and you started hearing about this ChatGPT thing, what is this? Like brand new on the scene, ⁓ I immediately got really excited because for a long time, be it in my freelance projects, my agency projects, or working at Memberstack, I frequently

12:25Julian Galluzzo: Would need let's say custom scripts for my Webflow site maybe animation maybe something to save data local storage all that fun stuff but I always had to contact a developer like we always had to have a developer on hand to write these scripts and you know we had to wait and wait and back and forth it's not working and all that stuff so when GPT comes around I'm like okay, wait, I can actually start building scripts for my Webflow sites on my own. And that was what really got me hooked. That being said, that was all it was for a little while, is I'm building sites in Webflow, and I'm using AI to build some, I guess, fun little features on them. That's all well and good, I'm doing that. And then I got in really into,

13:08Julian Galluzzo: Developing web apps with Wized and again Wized do you need to put code in so I was using ChatGPT to write the code for whiz this is when it really started to feel like wow. Okay, I can build real powerful web apps here using this AI stuff then I ended up seeing cursor which was pretty new at the time and downloaded it and I went whoa now I'm not simply, you know, getting ChatGPT to write a script and pasting it in somewhere and taking it back and forth. The AI is applying my code for me. This makes things so much faster. Got hooked on cursor, built a few products, was super excited about it, and then Alex Christou is his name. I could send you his ex-handle after. He's like an AI evangelist. Not like some super famous person or anything like that, but when this guy recommends something to me,

13:58Julian Galluzzo: Every time it ends up being good. Just saying. But he was recommending Claude Code. He keeps telling me Claude Code, Claude Code, Claude Code. I'm like, why though? Why would I use Claude Code? And he said basically, he's like, with cursor, it's like a car that has lane, you know, lane assist. So you're not gonna like fall out of your lane. He's like Claude Code is like a car with autopilot. I'm like, Alex buddy, that makes no sense. You convinced me I'm in I'm gonna try Claude Code so I tried Claude Code and that was the moment of no return because at that point I just started simply trying and saying this is what I want to build without having to do a whole bunch of babysitting of the agent it just happened and then I could really quickly get it live and that was the moment where I'm like, okay we can build real products with this now fast forward to last year around November

14:52Julian Galluzzo: That was when Opus 4.5 came out. When Opus 4.5 came out, I tried it and I'm like, that's cool, it's fine. But after using it for a while... I realize this is the real leap. This is where I no longer have to be watching and making sure everything is perfect. This is where the AI has become far smarter than I'm capable of being. And it's been that way ever since. So again, going back to the reasons why I started using Webflow, which is I want to build real, professional, flexible work for my clients without a massive learning curve.

15:26Julian Galluzzo: AI came around and it solved that need for me ⁓ far better. So these days, look, us as a company at Memberstack, many of us are ⁓ still using Webflow every day. Me personally, ⁓ I'm not. ⁓ And again, the reason ⁓ that has happened now is because the reason why I started using Webflow, I can now achieve easier and better with AI. Not that Webflow has become a worse product or Webflow is bad. It's just that these other tools have accelerated so rapidly and entirely changed the way that I work on everything and so yeah that's in a nutshell I guess how I got into Webflow and then after that how I moved into more and more AI

16:11Janne Parri: Beautiful. Okay. So, we will get to get to the webflow part and where does this all leave webflow. But I think we should do a little, overview of the Memberstack site migration. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but you basically, decided to demo ⁓ the site ⁓ using Claude Code and then figured that ⁓ that is actually like working code. So why not just publish that you did punch off landing pages and try to find any like bugs or challenges or any, anything like that. But you just kept going. You used sanity for CMS and you hosted it on Vercel and published the site to the masses like late last year. Is that about the gist?

17:00Julian Galluzzo: That is definitely the short and sweet, and I can fill in all those blanks,

17:04Janne Parri: I'm just like wondering what are the blanks and did you have like any challenges or was it just like smooth sailing all the way?

17:13Julian Galluzzo: Yes, so... First things first, how did it actually happen? Not last year, 2024. Our site was super out of date in so many ways. Our product had changed significantly. Our branding had changed. And so we needed to do a really big overall on our site. 2024, just to remind you. I did that. It took me like a month and a half, that sort of thing. And it was in much better shape. One more year. We're looking again, and with everything that's happened with AI and

17:43Julian Galluzzo: We've changed our product in a big way to be able to better support people working with AI. We again need to do a very big change to our website, but looking back to what I just did a year ago and how long that took and how much of a pain that was because not because of Webflow, but because this is a Webflow site that had been managed by like, you know, eight to ten different people over the span of eight years. And I'm sure you know any project like that, unless it is meticulously managed.

18:18Julian Galluzzo: Is gonna be a complete and total mess. So like, you know, different class naming systems, like a bunch of stuff in the CMS that's like, delete no longer needed, delete no longer needed. This site was a mess. Again, that's our fault. That's not Webflow's fault. And I want to make that clear. But at the end of the day, a platform where you do stuff manually, you are, you know, those risks are there. So I'm like, man, I don't want to rebuild this site, you know, especially because I've been working so, so, so, so, so much with Claude Code over the past, you know, six, seven months leading up to this, that it just felt like magic, whereas I really felt like I was going back in time having to do all of this stuff manually. And so anyways, I'm talking to my coworker and it was never a plan at all to vibe code this site. Zero. Not because it was a bad idea, just because we're like...

19:09Julian Galluzzo: You can't do that. You can't vibe code a, you know, large high traffic marketing site. That's a terrible idea, right? Must be. So we're talking about, you know... Rebuilding it in Webflow and how that's gonna look and then ⁓ we just decided we're like, okay there's gonna be a big project. So before we start let's ⁓ make a little prototype for what the new home page is gonna look like what our new brand positioning is gonna look like how this is gonna feel so I'm just gonna do that in Webflow and then it's like ⁓ why don't we just make this prototype in clock code, you know see what we can come up with and we can rebuild it in Webflow after and with that so I redid the home

19:47Julian Galluzzo: Page in 2024 and this home page took me two weeks. I mean just building something seeing if I like it, building something else, trying three different variants of sections back and forth over and over again. Took me a couple weeks to build out the home page so fast forward to 2025 when I was doing this now with Claude Code. After like the same day by the end of the day I was looking at this home page that I'd come up with and it was like way better. It was so much better I was shocked because I do a lot of you know functional stuff with AI web apps. They don't need to look beautiful they just need to work and they need to look okay, but this was a much better looking page I showed everyone on the team and everybody agreed that this page was just so much better. So then talking my co-workers

20:35Julian Galluzzo: Again and we're like but we're rebuilding this in Webflow kind of silence there's the elephant in the room we're like why not you know we should we totally should rebuild it in Webflow but let me just play devil's advocate here why would we rebuild it in Webflow we're talking and we can't come up with anything like we came up with a lot of things for example one of the concerns was like what are we gonna do about our CMS? We have a whole bunch of you know, marketing team members content writers stuff like that how are they going to you know, we're not just gonna give them access to Claude Code and tell them to go wild, right? What are we gonna do? So? Looked into it. Yeah, there's a lot of headless CMS's. Okay that problem solved what about just being able to make edits build new landing pages stuff like that? We know from our experience of using Claude Code how much

21:24Julian Galluzzo: Faster that would be so we're like that's not a problem what about SEO? Well, you know, we're building this with Next.js which some of the world's biggest marketing sites are using so that's not gonna be a problem. Anyways, you get the idea like issue by issue by issue we had answer for everything and so still though we're like, you know our site's been in webflow for the entirety the whole existence of our company and we've never vibe-coded something that's important before so we're like well, how should we do this? Like we can't figure out why not to but it must be a bad idea, right? It must be a bad idea. And so the only thing we could think of to validate it was I'm just gonna do it.

22:06Julian Galluzzo: Not like I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna switch the site over but like I'm gonna start migrating pieces over and we're like surely in this process I am gonna hit a point where I'm thinking this is a bad idea. I shouldn't do this and you know, we're gonna keep the site in Webflow So I started with the static pages it was super easy like just to give you an idea once you already have your home page done with a project that's built with AI. It is so good at knowing your other components, your brand look, your attitude and all that stuff. So building new static pages was as simple as just sending it a link to the old static page and saying, rebuild this with the new styles. So I repeated that, you know, a hundred times for all of our static pages. Everything was beautiful, looking great, but I wasn't so shocked there. I was thinking the CMS, it's going to be a problem. It's going to be complicated. Nobody's going to know how to use it. So I ended up finding the CMS.

23:02Julian Galluzzo: Through a conversation with Claude called sanity and I'm like I've never used a headless CMS before. How do I implement this? But Claude, can you add sanity to my site? And runs for like five minutes. And then it's like, okay, you can log in here. Here's how you try it out. I did. I'm like, wait, there's a CMS. No, I don't know. There's no way there's a CMS. This just looks like a CMS. Claude made it. It's fake. It's a lie. We're going to have to go back to Webflow. So I'm like, okay. I go to Webflow. I export like our most simple collection. It was just testimonials. So like name, image.

23:36Julian Galluzzo: Testimonial I send Claude the CSV I'm like can you can you put this insanity now yeah running five minutes later or less it's like done really? I open sanity? All the testimonials are there? I'm like, there's no way, this is not possible. So, then I try with blog posts. And then I try with templates. And then I try with components, members scripts, all these different things that we have. We have a pretty complicated CMS setup in Webflow. Collection by collection, and item by item, and CSV by CSV. Like a couple days later, I'm looking and I'm saying, and now we have the same easy to use CMS setup like we did in Webflow. All that old junk is

24:16Julian Galluzzo: I'd fixed many formatting issues. You know, for example, let's say let's say you have like a score in your CMS and it's like 5.0 and you have a thousand five hundred items but you want to change the you know the score to just be like five you're like, I don't want to go through and edit, you know, over a thousand items to do that. So we had a bunch of just old junk in our CMS. But when you're working with sanity with the MCP, I would just be like, go through all these items and change the formatting to this.

24:49Julian Galluzzo: Boom, minutes later, it was done. And so I'm looking and now we have a CMS setup that's at least as easy as what we had in Webflow. All of our items are there. All of our old formatting issues and all those junky bits were fixed. And so at that point, like, okay, pretty much the whole site has been migrated over. But I'm thinking at this point, I'm like, okay, static page is fine. CMS, fine. Not a problem, I guess. We figured that one out. But, you know, this site's not gonna rank, is it? So I put it into, if anyone doesn't know, there's a tool called UnLighthouse. Like, we all know Lighthouse, UnLighthouse. You could basically, it takes all the pages on your site and runs them through Lighthouse, gives you all the scores.

25:33Julian Galluzzo: So I put the new site into Unlighthouse and I put our Webflow site into Unlighthouse. And by this point, we're talking as a team and Duncan, my boss, like, as long as it's at least as good as our Webflow site with page speed score. So I'm thinking I'm going to punch this in and our Webflow is going to be like 80 and this is going to be like 30. And then I'm going to just have a whole mess of a time trying to catch up. Right away, with zero optimization work whatsoever, it was like our Webflow site was a 60 and our new site was like an 88. Like, mmm...

26:08Julian Galluzzo: You know, it loads faster, SEO scores are higher, accessibility not even ⁓ like blew it out of the water because you know, accessibility in Webflow, you have to do ⁓ the work to make things accessible. You have to add the alt tags, the area labels, contrast, all this stuff. AI just, it has that knowledge built into it. And so the whole site was built in an accessible way without me even thinking about it. And so by this point, we have all of the hard data that we need. ⁓ And we're like, yeah, this is a better idea than keeping our site in Webflow... Shocking were completely surprised by that. This was not our plan at all it just kind of happened and so ⁓ there's one final thing and it's like what if something just happens?

26:51Julian Galluzzo: The lifeblood of our business is our organic traffic. If we just launch this site and it's not getting organic traffic, like we're screwed. But there's no way to test that. You can look at your Lighthouse scores. You can check your page optimization. There's no way to know. You can't, you know, predict Google accurately. And so anyways, we made a whole backup plan. We're like, if we need to reverse the site quickly, here's what we're going to do. We're like preparing for a disaster. And then we did.

27:21Julian Galluzzo: We switched the DNS settings and we're all on a call together looking refreshing. We're like, it's live. No. No, what's gonna happen now? We're scared. We're scared because we've been I guess I don't want to say led to believe but really we'd all been under the belief that like yeah AI is like MVPs and you know, internal stuff, but like you're not gonna do a real important project, five-coded, right? So we have this fear in our head that essentially is based off of nothing. We're waiting, we're waiting for problems. A week goes by nothing, two weeks goes by nothing.

27:55Julian Galluzzo: Three weeks ago by and that was where it was really surprising because you know, I mean, I'm sure you and many people watching this have done a lot of CMS migrations, know, picture WordPress to Webflow every single time clients like, are we going to lose any traffic? And you're like, yes, a little bit for a short amount of time. And then it's going to pick up, you know, like I think the general rule is you're going to 20 % for about two weeks. So this was expected and this absolutely happened. Our traffic dipped for like two weeks. But then once this third week came around where it's usually supposed to bounce back, we're waiting, we're waiting, we're waiting, and it shot up.

28:32Julian Galluzzo: All-time high impressions, clicks, everything, and that was at the start of January, and that has held steady since January. So at this point, look, it's been over three months since we've had this site live, and our search is doing better. We're making an insane amount of updates to it. Everyone on our team is able to join in, from the Webflow developers to the content team to like engineers. Everyone's able to be involved in it. I mean at this point. I don't know what more I can say there was no ⁓ downside ⁓ of doing this I'm not saying that every project should be down so should be migrated and that there's never going to be any downside ⁓ But in our case we migrated the site it works better. It's faster, in our opinion you may disagree, but in our opinion it looks better our whole team is able to update it like ⁓

29:25Julian Galluzzo: There's nothing and so back to you know that flux video seeing in the comments when people are like you can't do that it's gonna break. No one's gonna be able to update it and like dude I can't even take those comments seriously anymore because I've seen it with my own eyes. I've done it I had the same concerns that these people did but the difference is you know, they're where I was in september last year I am in, you know march 2026 and i've seen it happen and it does work. There's no, you know if anyone feels offended or their role feels threatened by the statement, I'm sorry, but like, there was no downside. That's it. So, where do we go from here?

30:06Janne Parri: Beautiful. Shoot down some of those doubts and get to the details. Let's start with the maintenance. How do you actually edit the site? Who has the access to the site? The CMS is quite simple. There's probably people. Edit the CMS, but what about those static sites? Does it have to go through prompting and Claude Code or actually editing the raw code or how do you manage that?

30:35Julian Galluzzo: So, we have, I would say, various types of people that are working on our site. We have marketers and content writers who have never built a website in their life. Those people get an invite to sanity, and that's it. Then, we have people who are, let's say, like me, or Webflow developers, people who've been building, but they're not, like, they don't code. They're not developers in the traditional sense. And then we have engineers. The people like me, here's the thing, even whether or not you know Webflow, you don't know Webflow has a learning curve. We're all well aware of this. We all spent the time learning it, getting the certifications. You cannot simply jump into Webflow and be proficient. You need to learn it. You need to practice it. With prompting, that is not the case. Now, some people might disagree with that. It's probably more nuanced than I'm putting it.

31:33Julian Galluzzo: If you have any sort of fundamental understanding of how websites work and how technology works, and if you're using a modern model such as Opus 4.6, you cannot really break all that much unless you are intentionally telling it to break stuff. Like, I have not seen a situation since at least September of last year where it's like, hey, Claude, make me a new landing page, and it breaks your site. And then we have the engineers. The engineers, they love it. They're thrilled because now it's just next.js React. They can go and work whether they want to write the code by hand or use Claude to do it. They love it. So to answer your question, simple content editors get access to the CMS. And along with that, we're actually working on a tool where they can make basic CSS updates, text edits,

32:25Julian Galluzzo: Like that. And then for the other people, they have access to Claude Code and they use it with Ship Studio, which is this product we're building. It's amazing. We can talk about that after too. And the beautiful thing, everyone's like, what if AI breaks your site? What if somebody doesn't know what they're doing and they mess something up? Everything goes to GitHub. If you break something, you are one clawed question away, or one click of a button in Vercel away, from rolling back your site to a time when it worked. That being said, again, we're three months in, and that we've not had to roll back anything ever. But for anyone thinking, no, what if your site breaks? I want you to think for a second.

33:15Julian Galluzzo: Have you never had a client who you gave access to their Webflow site and they changed a class and now every button has 80 pixels space below it and they're calling you at 3 in the morning saying I broke my site fix it. The point is if you put too much power into the hands of someone who shouldn't have it things can break. Most importantly there is a backdoor. There is a mechanism of reverting back to a point where it worked. That's true with Webflow. And that's true with vibe coding anything. So yeah, that's kind of my take. It's that similarly to Webflow, not anyone, you know, we're not gonna give the least technical person on our team like access to the GitHub repo and just tell them to go wild. We're not gonna do that. In the same way, you wouldn't give the least technical member of your team like designer access and Webflow and tell them to go wild. They could break the whole thing. But.

34:10Julian Galluzzo: You can undo that. There are mechanisms in place so that if something happens, you'll be fine. Really, there's trade-offs. Everything in life is a trade-off, and this is no different. But at the end of the day, when you take the fact that even less technical people can really easily, really quickly whip up landing pages fast that start ranking and actually generating us traffic, the slightly increased risk that perhaps there is again. I haven't seen it. I don't know. I may disagree with myself in a month here it's worth it really but yeah, so editing has been great. It's been different definitely but we have been making more updates to our site, you know I would say in the first like 10 days of 2026 we made more updates to our site than we did in the entire like second half of last year

35:04Julian Galluzzo: And in that time, nothing broke. So to the naysayers, you know, I'm waiting for something to break. And when it breaks, believe me, I'm not going to be hiding behind and trying to not tell anyone so they don't know. I'm going to be the first one to publicly go, my vibe coded site is fucking broken. And I don't know what's going on. But until that day comes, it's going great, man. It's going great.

35:28Janne Parri: Okay, beautiful. But okay, the version control is in GitHub. I believe you kind of had to learn that at some point. What about the other more technical stuff that Webflow usually handles for us like the hosting, the CDNs, well the version control is there, is it SSL, SSL certificates, that sort of things are those like in Vercel or how do you handle those?

35:58Julian Galluzzo: Yes, so just to kind of go over the stack I guess from scratch here sanity is a CMS we've talked a good bit about sanity every time we make an edit to the code that goes into github which stores all of our versions we can roll back we can do pull requests multiple people can work at the same time. That's all thanks to github but github it just holds your code, you know, that doesn't actually make it live on the internet you need something to like you said do all of that technical stuff and host it and for that we use Vercel. Vercel was probably the thing that really, really made me go all in on vibe coding because I've, look, I've used Cloudflare before and I hate it. I can't stand Cloudflare. It's a powerful product and their pricing is great, you know. Credit where credit is due, but like...

36:49Julian Galluzzo: It feels like you are operating the cockpit of a rocket ship when you're in Cloudflare, and I can't stand it. So I ended up trying out Ver-Self or something, and it was like, I just clicked new project from a GitHub repo. It's live SSL certificate super fast CDN everything included that same magic that you get when you click the publish button in Webflow and you're like it's live. That's what you get with Vercel as well. It handles all of that and all you do is set up a project connect it to your github repo and then when something goes live in github, it will go live to your users as well. All of this is handled by

37:34Julian Galluzzo: Vercel and it has been I mean look our site has been loading faster. It's been performing better we've had zero infrastructure headaches. We've not had a single issue Security this that you name it Vercel is really the final let's say 10 % of stuff that usually if you were building a custom project would be such a pain Vercel makes that so easy like I love that honestly for anyone who's tried to build a custom project before and run into that step that whole getting this from on my computer to live on the internet go and use for sell it is phenomenal and along with that it is for most things free we pay basically

38:24Julian Galluzzo: We pay like 20 bucks a month for this team plan. And in that team plan, ⁓ we have many sites live, including the Memberstack site. And that covers like all of it. Vercel ⁓ has gotten some slack in the development community for like... Hidden billing later on and I'm aware of that and I'm consciously watching that being said we pay for sell next to nothing and it has been doing everything that we need it to do so well

38:55Janne Parri: That is exciting. I'm getting very excited because we are at the same time, like shooting down all of all of my doubts. And the technical stuff is obviously one big thing. And I be going straight to the versatile side right after this.

39:09Julian Galluzzo: Do it.

39:10Janne Parri: But next doubts. What about all the visual things? Many people say that AI is not that great on design and all that. Animations and such and I have seen the Memberstack site and there are some cool like little animations and stuff. How did you make those basically?

39:27Julian Galluzzo: So, actually I think there's kind of two different things to talk about, one of which is visual editing. A lot of people say, if I'm not using Webflow, how am going to be able to make those simple, precise visual edits? That's a big conversation I'd love to talk about. Along with that designing with, because I think that's more relevant to this question, here's the thing. A lot of people will say, make me a landing page to AI and... Out pops something and it looks rather shit and they just chop that out AI sucks at design bad

39:58Julian Galluzzo: That is just so not the case. Let me give anyone watching this a simple crash course on how LLMs work. LLMs aren't designers. They're not thinkers. They're not engineers. They're not anything. They make predictions based on what's most likely to come next. And when you give a simple instruction such as, make me a bold hero section, it is going to take all of the stuff in its training data that it could consider to be a bold hero section, and it is going to predict the average. Meaning, what you're going to end up with is the most flat, boring, uninspiring design you've ever seen. And a lot of people are going to look and just chop that down to like...

40:44Julian Galluzzo: AI sucks at design. But the problem there is the way that you're treating AI, not AI itself. When you understand that all AI is doing is predicting the next most likely thing, take a step back and go. I need to slap up some constraints here and not just let AI, you know, make some assumptions and give me something uninspiring. So the deal with AI is this. You are able to create anything that you can articulate, that you can communicate, that you can explain. So if you're a designer, for example, you might be used to going into Figma and messing around and trying a bunch of things and seeing what's going to look good.

41:22Julian Galluzzo: That is basically brain to hand. What you need in order to design properly with AI is brain to mouth, as in, explain very clearly what you want to see, how you want it to look, how it should function. Let that come from you. Do not let AI be the creative director because it is quite honestly the most boring creative director on planet Earth. But it's amazing in execution. You need to let yourself be the creative director. Don't think, you know, if you give the most, it's the same thing. We all sit here and say, you know, we laugh about the stupid request that clients might give us. Make it pop.

42:03Julian Galluzzo: Make it brighter. Make it more dynamic. You know, we will do that and laugh at how clients say stuff like this to us, and then we'll turn around and tell AI to make it pop. And when we get something uninspiring,

42:14Janne Parri: You

42:15Julian Galluzzo: We are like, AI sucks. Like, no, no, no, you suck for not having clearly explained what you want to see. Now, that's the truth. That's the fact of the matter. But for anyone watching this wondering why am I getting terrible designs from AI, that's not very actionable. Here's the deal. We all want to communicate clearly, but it's not easy to communicate clearly. And so let me give you a very, simple tip that I follow on getting good designs with AI. And that is... When you don't know what you want, very, very clearly ask for many different versions of it. For example, you want to make a hero section. Say, describe whatever you can describe. Sometimes it's literally going to be, make me a dynamic, fun hero section for this brand. You know, terrible explanation, but fine, do it, paste it in. It's going to look bad. Don't just chop that up and don't follow down a path of trying to put lipstick on a pig. If the section sucks, that's fine. Say, okay, make me two more.

43:14Julian Galluzzo: Now make me three more. Now make me five more. And keep looking, keep looking until you see one. For example, these animations that you mentioned on the Memberstack site. This wasn't a result of ⁓ me being such a great communicator and saying I want it to look exactly like this and do this and do that. I said, I want a hero section for the Memberstack site. ⁓ I want it to clearly outline how you add a Memberstack to a Webflow site through attributes. Make me a section. It made one look terrible. Another one, another one, another one. And then it made this animation. The one that you see on the site now. It was...

43:49Julian Galluzzo: Not the greatest but it was like yes, that is the right direction so then what you do is Iterate this hero section probably took about you know eight hours of prompting all in to get it looking like what it looks like today because at the start something's gonna look funny you're gonna say fix this fix that fix this raise this lower this side left, whatever but that's the way that you go. If you're expecting to get... The most beautiful, inspired, and meaningful design from one simple prompt. That would be bad, because the moment that comes, that's when we actually no longer, you know, have value. But that's simply not the case right now, and just based on the way that LLMs work, I don't see it being the case. I see our value as humans in directing AI, in providing this creative direction for such an

44:46Julian Galluzzo: Uninspired machine to take and get inspiration and build amazing things and my final tip on how I end up with good looking AI designs is I follow, I gotta trademark this man, I tell everyone about this method that I call what do you hate the most? And it's as simple. I will tell AI, hey, I'm building this thing, here's an explanation of what it is, make me a homepage for it. And out comes again, the most boring, uninspiring, mediocre homepage I've ever seen in my life.

45:21Julian Galluzzo: I don't necessarily just say do it again, do it again, do it again until it's perfect. No. Once I get something where like the general direction is in line with what I'm thinking, then I say what do I hate the most? And almost always there's, you know, one or two things that are like broken, like overlapping text, two things touching, stuff like that. That's what you hate the most. It's broken. So fix it. Go down and say this button is touching this paragraph, fix it. This, fix it. That, fix it. Then you fix all the broken stuff. And then you're going to see a section on your page which is not broken, it's just not great. Know, it's uninspiring, like I said. So you're going to say, okay, the features section, make me three different variations of it. I, and again, explain whatever you can. If the problem is that it doesn't list all your features, say it doesn't list all my features.

46:10Julian Galluzzo: If you're just looking at it and thinking, don't love it, then there's no art to prompting. Just say, hey, Claude, I don't love it. Come up with three or four more. It'll do that. Maybe you don't like those. Come up with three or four more. And then eventually, one of them, you're going to say, that's the right direction. I like it. Delete all the other ones. Let's work on that. Repeat this process of find whatever you hate the most, and then get it to a point where you no longer hate it the most. Instead of hero section, make perfect, move on. Next section, make it perfect. My process is whole page that sucks and then piece by piece I go down, I go up, I go to the side and at the end, know, usually it takes about one hour to end up with a page that I really from scratch really think looks nice but you know if it's important such as on the Memberstack home page I can go for another you know eight, ten, twenty, thirty. I can spend a whole week on one page just making it better.

47:06Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, this is this is the point that you still have to do the work many of us might get the picture that we can just one shot everything because everybody in the internet of course says that I built this in 10 minutes or something like that but as he said that is not the case and it's weird how easily we think of that before we actually try it out ourselves. But you also mentioned the visual editing. How could I edit the site visually, do the fine-tuning, the little details? What about that? What's your solution for that?

47:44Julian Galluzzo: So what I will say is coming from Webflow for so, so, so long, that just feels like the natural thing to me, is I can see something, go the corner radius is too big, and then tweak it a little bit until it's exactly what I want. So moving into coding with AI, not having that, you know. We all run into these situations where it's like make the corner radius smaller. No, no, that's too small. Make it bigger. Okay, now that's too big. Make it smaller. Okay, again, it's too small. Make it bigger. And you're like, I wish I could just simply drag a button, you know, like I can in Webflow. The thing is, Webflow owns the entire site.

48:25Julian Galluzzo: Webflow controls it. They know how it functions. And the way that classes are in Webflow is very different from, for example, Tailwind, where you're using all utility classes. And so it fundamentally doesn't make sense, technically, to edit things in the same way that you do in Webflow, because your button it has four pixels radius not because the button class is four pixels radius, but because it has the border radius four class applied to it. And so basically we end up having these situations where we want to edit visually and we can't. And I have actually experimented with and I've built a couple visual editors for React projects and I got them working. And similarly to Webflow, I was able to

49:14Julian Galluzzo: Click on a button. Also cursor, for example, has a feature like this where you can simply drag things, see what it looks like, and then it pushes that into AI. But I found that I wasn't using it. There were situations where I would use it and I would want to use it, but we're talking like in 16 hours of building, I would use it. Once, maybe once in a week. And I'm sitting there and going, we all want a visual editor, but do we actually? Like what purpose

49:45Julian Galluzzo: Is it gonna serve us? For example, if you wanna build a brand new section, it is never easier to build it from scratch than it is to type a prompt, explaining it and build it. It's just not. You're never gonna be able to do it visually faster than you would through a prompt. These things that we do want to do visually are always very, very basic things. And when that happens, again, what I'll do is I'll just go into Inspect Element, drag it, and I'll go, OK, 10 pixels looks good here. OK, change it to 10 pixels. And so visual editing.

50:24Julian Galluzzo: Is a thing which I think in a big way is made for a different way of building. You know, I'm still waiting to see a visual editor. That I can actually properly add into my workflow. And at the end of the day, whether I want to build a project in Webflow or if I want to vibe code it, there are obviously trade-offs on all sides. And the big trade-off, big trade-off we'll say with vibe coding is that you lose that visual editing that you get with Webflow. The trade-off with Webflow is that you can't build with agents and you can't build well with agents before Alan wants to comment something and tell me that you actually

51:04Julian Galluzzo: Can connect Claude to Webflow. Know I've tried it many times, thank you very much. But, again, at the end of the day, I gotta pick one. I gotta pick one trade-off. And I would say that the visual editing side of things... Maybe loses me 10 minutes a week. Whereas if I traded agents for visual editing, I would basically lose my entire week. So visual editing for vibe coding is a problem which hasn't been solved yet. And honestly, my hope is that Webflow solves that problem because there is something there. People like that tactile

51:42Julian Galluzzo: I drag this here and this looks like that. And right when people started really getting into vibe coding is when I was thinking Webflow is going to do it. Webflow is going to be the one to solve that problem. But here we are a year after I was thinking that and no. Unfortunately, truly unfortunately again for anyone watching this and inevitably commenting things like, I'm just trying to convince everyone on AI. I make my money from the Webflow community. If the Webflow community does well, I do well. I want the Webflow community. I love the Webflow team. You know, I want us all to do well, but at the end of the day, I'm not going to try to shift narratives.

52:21Julian Galluzzo: Based on my own material instinct. If I see that something is better, I'm going to say it's better. If I see that something's worse, I'm going to say it's worse. And so, yeah, final note on the visual editing is it's an unsolved problem, but it's a far smaller problem than... What I thought it was going to be. And if you ask anyone who is vibe coding frequently, you know, if they want visual editing capabilities, you often get a very unenthusiastic answer from them. And so, yeah, it's a tough one, visual editing, but at the end of the day, it's, I would say the trade-off, the trade-off that we get from not being in Webflow. And it's a trade-off I'm willing to take.

53:04Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, but I get the sense that obviously people talk about control that the visual editor is kind of giving people control, but the control is there even if it's coded from scratch. And I'm just thinking that shouldn't every like project have a proper like a style guide or some sort of system. Do you end up building those sort of like libraries, style guides, whatever you call them ⁓ variables and such, would that be a part of the solution?

53:38Julian Galluzzo: So, in a big way, yes. However, and that's actually on to my note as well. We all think about components as webflow developers and how much time they save us but and believe me this will answer your question eventually when it comes to components, for example think about a hero section component you know you use it as a component because you can place it on ten different pages edit here updates everywhere and then a situation happens where you're like, but in this page I need a little bit of text

54:09Julian Galluzzo: Below it and then you're like, okay now I have to change the entire architecture of the component in order to fit it in or should I just unlink it and then just this isn't a component but then when I update things it doesn't work and so that's always been you know a big issue for me when developing in Webflow again, not Webflow's fault. It's just fundamentally that's how components work what you gain in reusability you lose in flexibility and so then when building with AI just my Webflow brain is like, make this a component, make this a component, reuse this, reuse this, reuse that. But you still run into the problems that you would with components in Webflow. But the thing about AI is this, if you have a hundred pages that all have a hero section that's similar, and you do what you would want to do with a component, increase the space below the button, you could just tell AI to go through all the pages and do that. You know what I mean? Like the benefit, the reusability

55:02Julian Galluzzo: Aspect kind of... Is gone when you're having agents build out your site. And so on the topic of style guides, that's kind of my point with visual editing. Like how necessary is it really? Because typically speaking, you know, if you want to reuse any value, it's as simple as saying, I want all my border radiuses to be this. It's going to go through your whole site, change them. You're going to say, turn that into a token. Okay. Now it's a token. If you update this one value,

55:33Julian Galluzzo: It will update all over the site. And so, you know, yeah, okay corner radius like I'm gonna sit there and say this is too big no, this is too small. No, this is too big. This is too small but once I get it once I just say use the same corner radius everywhere and it's done, and I don't need the visual editing side of things. So yeah, yeah, like it is, here's the thing, especially if we're talking like Claude Opus 4.6, it is the best coder ever to exist. No individual human programmer is better at writing code, not at architecture engineering, but at writing code than Claude Opus 4.6. So if you're sitting there and saying this needs to be reused,

56:14Julian Galluzzo: We have value in reusing this across the whole site. Tell it that, will write the code perfectly and you get all of those benefits.

56:22Janne Parri: That's super interesting yeah my mind is a little bit blowing right now that yeah maybe the style guide is just for us humans like mortals so to speak

56:33Julian Galluzzo: Perhaps.

56:34Janne Parri: But okay, the big question is, you be building websites for clients with this you used with Memberstack site?

56:46Julian Galluzzo: Yes, so on that front, look, it really depends on who the client is. Is your client a Webflow developer who loves Webflow and loves making edits in Webflow? Because if so, no. If the client is a restaurant that needs a simple website to go live, it is going to be... Like night and day faster to build their site and then i'm going to be able to host it for free on Vercel. So right now we're building this product ship studio which basically just helps people who are more used to visual builders build properly like developers and we have people who are following this business model that they never would have been able to do in webflow which is like local businesses they build them a site for free and they charge them 100 bucks a month for hosting and maintenance they can do that for

57:33Julian Galluzzo: 200 different businesses and host it for free in Vercel whereas with Webflow each and every you know it's one thing when you're dealing with a 30 40 50 person SaaS company they don't care about a hundred 200 300 whatever it costs dollar a month Webflow bill but when you're dealing with these small mom and pop shops that you know $30 a month is Absolutely, you know game-changing that's the difference of whether they even want to have a website or not. So for these tiny businesses absolutely moving your way into the bigger businesses, such as let's say, Memberstack, like not, you know, enterprise or anything like that, but like smaller, I would say more or less the same kind of clients that we work on as Webflow developers, you know, ⁓ 10 to 50 people companies. And again, to that front, I would say, what would the difference between Memberstack and them? Why would

58:26Julian Galluzzo: It be any worse for them to have this kind of site, then it would be for Memberstack to have this kind of site. And it really depends on the type of client. That being said, if we are going to generalize here, ⁓ I can't really see too many situations in which I would rather build a client, site in Webflow, than have a site vibe-coded for them. Then moving on to enterprises. The thing about these enterprises is that they have developers and when you vibe code something, you are basically making something which can be worked on from simple, less technical team members all the way to your engineers.

59:07Julian Galluzzo: Like that is crazy this gap between the designer and the engineer and the marketing person and the executive Closes because we can all work in the exact same environment the more people that you have on a team I always see comments. I saw some yesterday even if people that are like yeah, but big companies with a lot of people working on the website, you can't vibe code a website for them. I think those are the people who stand to gain the biggest improvement from a vibe coded website because now more people can work on their site at the same time. They can make more updates and different levels of technicality can collaborate in the same environment. Our strategy now for the most part, when it comes to building out new pages is for example, our head of content.

59:55Julian Galluzzo: Molly, she's not technical, she would never have gone into Webflow and just built out a whole landing page from scratch. Now what she does is she goes into her site, creates a branch, builds out the whole page on her own. Now, is Molly the greatest designer in the world? No, she focuses on content. So she builds that whole page out and then can hand it off to someone on the team who's more, you design oriented. They can then go on the same page, make it beautiful. And then that page can be for landing page. You don't need to do this, but whatever let's say it's a more complicated feature you can then hand that same thing off to a developer who can go in make sure it's you know scalable sustainable whatever it may be again not needed with a landing page, but you get the idea everyone

1:00:40Julian Galluzzo: Can take part in the same work, in the same environment, in the same way. And so the bigger and more fragmented a company's team is, I think the more benefit that they have from having a vibe-coded website. So... Absolutely yes. That being said, we are in a very weird time right now because you know where your value lies as a Webflow developer. Know, client needs something bigger changed. They're going to contact you. They need some simple text change stuff like this. They can do it on their own through the, you know, build C, client C, whatever it is today.

1:01:17Julian Galluzzo: So I think one of the biggest issues that we have is how does the client and developer relationship look like in an AI driven world where we're building AI driven projects? A lot of people go, where does my value lie? If I build a client, a full on website with clogged and then I give them access to clogged code. Am I just done? Why would I do that? I'm not going to make any more money after that. And so we're entering something very unprecedented because nobody knows how this works. I think in a year, we're going to be looking back and the AI native agency is going to be an established concept and we're all going to know how this works. And that's something that I really am trying to get involved in shaping is the future of how does it look to build client projects with

1:02:05Julian Galluzzo: AI. But if I want to put it in a nutshell so people can understand how would this look like if I was building a client a site using this stack. The thing is and the thing you should understand is that anyone can build a website thanks to AI but that's been the case for a long time. Anyone's been able to build a website since 2010? I don't know. You know, is Wix brand new to the scene? Is Squarespace brand new to the scene? I was building websites when I was 12 years old with zero technical background. Just, I was a developer in the sense that I like created maps and roblox so everyone can build a website that's more true now with AI but the question is if your client can build a website with Wix or Squarespace Why do they pay you? Are you're probably thinking about that? That's a stupid question. You know, I know what I'm doing I know how to design a good website. I know it looks good why is that any different now? The AI is around in the sense of if your client

1:03:04Julian Galluzzo: Knows exactly what they want. They know exactly what it should look like and how to articulate it. The fact of the matter is your client should build it on their own. But clients don't know that. At the end of the day, you have been working on websites. You have been designing websites for years. You know what looks bad. You know what looks good. And your client doesn't. Let me give everyone who's maybe confused about this a little bit of homework. Go give your mom access to lovable. Tell your mom to make a website. She's going to come back in 20 minutes and say, look, I made a website. And you're going to say,

1:03:40Julian Galluzzo: Why, yes, you did, mom, but that website looks like shit. And she's not going to agree. She's going to look at it and say, it looks wonderful. But again, it's going to be that soulless, dead AI design. The thing is, if clients were all making their websites, then everything in the world would just be a Wix or a Squarespace template. But clients don't want a Wix or a Squarespace template. They don't want the first thing lovable spits at them. They want someone who is experienced, smart, and has taste to build them something real and something important. And so your role as a professional is the exact same thing. The only difference is that instead of click, drag, value.

1:04:23Julian Galluzzo: You can build out a whole page rapidly and then look at it, use your own taste and your own judgment to go, this looks bad, this looks good, and refine it from there. And so to sum up your question in the most simple way I can, it's that businesses stand to benefit tremendously from implementing the stack into their company. The question for you as an agency, as a freelancer is how do I do this in a way where we still have value and that's my take but this is going to be very much so shaped I think over the next couple months and over the next year so anyways yes is my answer yes

1:05:04Janne Parri: I gotta admit I've already forgot the question but a new one came to my mind like do you think with all what you described do you think that this like increases the value of design and taste and kind of in comparison decreases the value of the technical side if we have AI that can actually like do all the stuff for us.

1:05:30Julian Galluzzo: Yes, in a bit of an interesting way in the sense that the hard skill, look, the hard skill of development has always been coding. That's a difficult skill to learn. Mean, I've tried it, and I quickly realized I'm far too impatient for that. I'm sure a lot of us are in the same boat, and that's what brought us over to Webflow. Whereas the hard skills of design, are what? Figma? You drag a square, make a circle, you know. It's very easy to learn how to use the product. Whereas when it comes to development, that's not the case. So what I think AI is doing is it is commoditizing these hard skills. It's making it so, you know, it's killing the same thing in both design and development. And that is, how do I even do this to begin with, you know?

1:06:17Julian Galluzzo: For example, Figma yesterday made it so you can with Claude Code have it take actions in a Figma canvas make things for you Google stitch came out so, you know the same thing is being eaten away from designers as it is from developers but the difference is designers true value has lied in their you know, their soft skills, their taste, their vision, and their expertise. So it doesn't feel that painful for a designer, but think about it this way.

1:06:52Julian Galluzzo: If you had zero engineering ability, but you could write JavaScript, you know, a couple years ago that meant you were making six figures. Like you're doing good, you're making money. That's gone. If you just, if you're the same thing, but you're a designer, which means you know how to use Figma, but you have no taste, you are long gone. Like you're never making money. Knowing Figma means nothing. Now apply that same thing to development. Knowing code means nothing. Code. Emphasize that because the same way that designers are creative and they have taste for what looks good and what looks bad, developers are creative in the sense of architecting solutions. You know, when I say to a designer, I want to have this feature in our product, they're going to go...

1:07:40Julian Galluzzo: Cool. Yeah, I know how this should look blah if I say it to a developer. They're gonna go okay, but how's that gonna impact this other feature and what about when a user comes in through this way they have a beautiful mind of being able to understand all the things that can go wrong all the things that can go right and how this can actually come together to be a technically feasible thing that we can do and so really what you're seeing is the erosion of these hard skills. And with designers, it was already eroded. Whereas with developers, you had a lot of people making a lot of money, even if mentally, they're terrible engineers. So now, I think what we're seeing is a lot of those developers who knew how to code, but they suck at engineering, are not finding jobs. And that sucks for them, but that's the way it is.

1:08:34Julian Galluzzo: Designers are a little bit more safe because their hard skill was already so... Useless? Again, knowing how to create a frame in Figma, you could teach that to like your elderly great aunt in a weekend. It's not hard. Coding is hard, and so that's really what we're seeing. The same thing is happening to both. But for designers, the barrier to entry has always been so low. Whereas for developers, it's drastic. The biggest and hardest thing to overcome is gone. And so that is what we're seeing happen before our eyes right now.

1:09:11Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, and we'll see what the future brings. Okay, we have go to the Webflow stuff and then I still want to talk to you about Memberstack. But what would it take for you to come back to Webflow? Let's say that a year comes by and you are thinking of another redesign for the Memberstack site. What would you wish to see or what would it take in terms of features or some other functionality for you to come back to Webflow?

1:09:48Julian Galluzzo: Honestly, I have a really simple answer for this one believe it or not for the first time in this conversation they need so that I can use the best agents in webflow properly so webflow made appgen that's phenomenal Webflow appgen uses the Claude agent SDK. Okay, it uses Claude but what a lot of people don't understand is that Webflow built Claude agent and Claude code night and day difference and so if you use Webflow App Gen today you're not going to get anything even remotely somewhat close to what you would get using actual Claude Code.

1:10:30Julian Galluzzo: What Webflow needs to do. Here's the thing. If Webflow wants to build the best agent in the world, then great. If Webflow... I'm going to use the best agent. That's what I'm going to do. And if Webflow creates the best agent, then well, wonderful. I will be using it, believe me. But the problem is Webflow can't create the best agent. Webflow can't compete with Anthropic on creating a good agent. Webflow can't create with OpenAI on creating the best agent. And they're well aware of that. I don't think anyone at Webflow thinks that Webflow can do that. But at the end of the day, look, and again, can you use the Webflow MCP with Cloud Code? Sure, you can use the Webflow MCP with Cloud Code, but the results that you're going to get building a Webflow site through that method versus building a next.js site normally in Cloud Code, there's no comparison. The Webflow site is going to look like a sloppy mess.

1:11:22Julian Galluzzo: And the Next.js site is going to look wonderful. And that's because Webflow in this case is the bottleneck. I do need to try the MCP recently. It's been a little while. But that is what Webflow needs to do primarily. Make it so that you can use the best AI tools inside of Webflow and then Webflow should just focus on being the layer that holds everything together. Now. Since I've been, let's say, I'm to say out of Webflow for a little bit, most of the projects I've been working on have not been touching Webflow at all. There's one other very big thing that I have grown to love since I have not been in Webflow so much, and that is the flexibility. I can do anything that I want to do. I used to basically, my job was like running into Webflow limitations and then trying to find these hacky workarounds with code.

1:12:12Julian Galluzzo: That's not the case. Can do everything in the way that it was meant to be done. So for example, there are so, so, so many different things I can install in React. For example, there's something called Agentation that helps me give feedback to my agents. The ecosystem is massive. Even though Webflow has a good ecosystem, it's not even like a fraction of what the React ecosystem is. And so the flexibility that I have and the things that I have when working with React and with Cloud Code are ⁓ incredible. And so really what I would love is to have that same flexibility. But again, the most important thing here ⁓ is that I could use the best agents. If I could build a truly, you know, I'm going to tell you right now, if I tried to use Cloud Code to build ⁓ the Memberstack site in Webflow through the MCP.

1:13:05Julian Galluzzo: It would have been faster for me to just do it myself by hand in Webflow. So that's the primary thing. And other than that, it's hard to justify your value in a world where it's so easy. For example, Webflow is closed off. Nothing against Webflow, that's both the value, like I said, with visual editing and the downfall of Webflow is that it's very closed off. They own everything on your site. However, it's easy to justify going into a closed platform when they make your life so much easier. But again, when I could simply build something super easily with Claude Code, put it in...

1:13:49Julian Galluzzo: GitHub in seconds through Cloud Code, connect it to Vercel, so it's live in seconds as well, and all of this is not only more flexible, but it's significantly cheaper. The pull to Webflow shrinks and shrinks and shrinks and shrinks. So what can Webflow do? Honestly, I think Webflow, probably their best bet right now is to take their expertise and ⁓ build something new. I'm not saying like abandoned Webflow is gone, you know, I'm not saying that in the slightest, but like ⁓ Webflow is made for ⁓ a different time. ⁓

1:14:25Julian Galluzzo: Webflow is made for a time where open meant complicated and closed meant easy. That's not the case anymore. And so I think Webflow should be investing resources into things that are going to help their target market, even if that product isn't Webflow itself. I think Webflow is, you know, I think like they have an awesome team. I think they're doing their best. I think they're super smart, but it's really hard to pivot something that perhaps shouldn't be pivoted. But again, I hope that in the next year, Webflow does something where I can look at it and say, this is the best tool for me again. I hope they do. I really do.

1:14:59Janne Parri: Yeah, that's interesting. In a way, it sounds to me that you kind of would wish that Webflow would be a bit more open, that you could use whatever model LLM you want. What if we imagine, let's say that the speed of building would get to the same level. So let's say the MCP would actually do some proper work. It would be fast to build. The results would be good. And then there would still be the thing that why would you, why would you, Opt in for the closed, environment and there should be something, some motivation for that. And maybe there could be something that is not in the open, environments.

1:15:43Janne Parri: Maybe the analyze thing, optimize thing, localization or something new along those lines. Do you see that there could be some features that would actually be a motivation to opt in for the closed environment?

1:16:01Julian Galluzzo: Yeah, and I think honestly the biggest I think there's two things one is an all-in-one system because look at the moment we have our site is Next.js and react. It's the code is in github. It's hosted with for sale. We have sanity we have PostHog for analytics. There's a lot. There's a lot of stuff I would rather if there was one tool that did all of this for us and wasn't such a huge trade-off in terms of the speed at which we could move. But I definitely think there is a lot of value in being that all in one system, which is what Webflow has done. I think, hypothetically, and again, Webflow's probably thought about this a lot more than I have, but...

1:16:45Julian Galluzzo: If I could build any project, let's say just like a next.js project with Claude Code and then instead of connecting it to GitHub and Vercel and then connecting post-hog and all this stuff, if I can instead just connect it to Webflow and then I can visually edit and there's a CMS and it's hosted and it has version control, you know, if that was the case. Where I could get all of these things for a reasonable price, then absolutely. But again, at that point, we're talking about a product which is more open and I don't think Webflow is able to make a more open product, not because their team, not because anything like that, but just their entire business is built on owning the whole system.

1:17:35Julian Galluzzo: So... Like, it's tough. Look, I'm not trying to sit here and say, hey, Webflow team, I know better than you. I don't. You're in a difficult position that came out of nowhere. I think Webflow was growing like there's no tomorrow. And then all of a sudden, things changed rapidly. And Webflow is in a really difficult spot right now with all of this. So it's difficult. I get it. What should they do? I don't know, but what I'm going to say to hopefully anyone on the Webflow team that's watching this is what brought me away from Webflow. And that is what I said. I can't use the best agents. When I see people building the craziest things easily with Claude Code, and then I go in and I try to use it with the MCP and Webflow and it sucks, that's what pulls me away.

1:18:29Julian Galluzzo: So I think the best thing would be this picture Webflow as it is in the same similar ish way to the MCP. Could connect Claude Code, Codex, whatever I want to and then have the agent, the best agent build out inside of Webflow. You know, if I could do the same thing and say, make me three different sections and it actually did so and they looked good, just like what happens when I do so with next.js then perhaps I would have never been pulled so far away from the ecosystem. And so that, think, is the most important thing for Webflow to be doing. And I hope that they're doing that. But at the same time, they probably thought of that. And the problem is if they say, hey, everyone, use Webflow with Claude Code, people are going to do it. They're going to go, this is awesome. And then they're very quickly going to go, wait, why am I using Webflow again? Even if it works well.

1:19:19Janne Parri: Yeah, that's true.

1:19:21Julian Galluzzo: At that point, you're going to be like, OK, this is my portfolio site, and so I don't want to pay $20 a month to host it. So I'm just, how do you do this for selfing? That's that easy? OK, well, maybe I'm going to try this on another site now, and another site, and then move over my clients. And you know what I mean? Webflow's in a tough spot right now.

1:19:41Janne Parri: That is true. I didn't think of it that way that you are kind of feeding them Claude Code and all the alternatives. I believe that they wanna make the MCP like actually useful and they kind of have to bring it out at some point. Well, it's out right now, but they are working on it. And as you said, that is... Not on a great level yet compared to the other things. But yeah, that is, that is true. At the same time, you get exposure to all the alternatives, but about the open source thing and the closed environment, I believe that might be a challenge for many other companies. Let's say if the trend is that open source is

1:20:24Janne Parri: Not anymore like complicated because you can just vibe code it's that brings the challenge to bunch of like closed companies or closed source companies wouldn't you think so

1:20:36Julian Galluzzo: Yep, definitely. Mean, like I said, we're building something called Ship Studio now and essentially what we've done is we've made it so much easier to use Cloud Code, GitHub, and Vercel all together to build websites. But, you know, we built this product, it's amazing. It's so much easier. We use it constantly. We have a bunch of users right now who really like it. But the thing is, this product is free because look, if you are someone who's building something and you want this and we charged 50 bucks a month for it.

1:21:11Julian Galluzzo: How are we going to justify that? You could quite literally pop open Cloud Code and say, hey, Cloud Code, build me my own desktop app. I'm not sharing it with anyone that does these things for me. I'm going to send it internally with my team, and that's it. Where does the value come for us to put a SaaS model on this? It simply doesn't. And so what we've done is this product is entirely free. It saves you time, and so it's free. You're going to end up using it. So then the question becomes where do we make money? I think that's kind of the thing. I think Webflow knows what they should do as far as a product goes, but product success for Webflow would mean hurting business success. And in the same way, business success

1:21:52Julian Galluzzo: Would mean hurting their product success. And so I think they need to shift drastically in the same way what we're doing with Ship Studio is we're making it free because why, you know, there's not enough reason for you to pay for it. It saves you some time. But what would happen is you would see it. You'd go, great idea. I'm going to build this myself on my own computer. So what we're trying to do is figure out all of the things that are monetizable. For example, in this case, forms. If you have a self-hosted website, need somewhere. You need something for your forms. You need to handle your forms.

1:22:26Julian Galluzzo: There are other ways you can handle your forms, but if we make our own form handler and it's just super easy and convenient... People would pay to use it because it's, you know, similar price to the alternatives. It does what it needs to do. There you go. I think that is really the monetization model that we're going to start to see more and more is that primary products free. I think the monthly subscription, SaaSification of everything is not completely dying, but I think it's going to drop and drop and drop more and more. And then you just need to figure out all like, where are you saving people money in ways that they can't necessarily

1:23:02Julian Galluzzo: Necessarily do it themselves so Webflow They need to figure something out because again like we pay I think probably about maybe 400 bucks a month for Webflow something like that and it's just that you know, we are a ⁓ Webflow company at Memberstack like we build something for the Webflow community we have all sorts of cloneables and templates and stuff like that. ⁓ So for us fine, but like for another company that perhaps has a couple sites in Webflow, they'd be looking and going, why are we paying these guys a hundred bucks a month? Like for what? What are we actually gaining from this? Not that Webflow doesn't give them any value, it's just that they could get that same value without spending that much money. So yeah, yeah. Where does that leave us?

1:23:46Janne Parri: Yeah. We live in some weird times, ⁓ that is kind of like a good segue ⁓ to Memberstack and Ship Studio, aka Shippy, is that a big thing for you or are you like eyeballing in some other directions or what kind of conversations are you going through for the future of Memberstack?

1:24:09Julian Galluzzo: Yes, so we've had a lot and obviously we're also talking internally about how do we, you know, adapt in this situation. The fact of the matter ⁓ is that Memberstack is the easiest and fastest way to get, you know, logins, payments, and now databases even ⁓ on your Webflow site. Which is awesome, that's how we've built a company, that's how we've grown, that's what people love us for. And so once the whole, okay, people are building especially web apps, which is our bread and butter with AI, how are we going to...

1:24:45Julian Galluzzo: Pivot, I guess, in that case. And so were putting a lot of effort and discussions into ⁓ making Memberstack the best way to have authentication and payments on a site that you vibe-coded. We made a lot of progress in there and... Memberstack is honestly awesome and super easy to set up on something that you vibe coded. But again, our ⁓ value prop and the reason that people pay us, you know, 30 plus dollars a month is that we save them a ton of time because doing that on your own on a Webflow site would be like terrible. Just don't even try it. No one should try that. It's terrible. If you're not going to use Memberstack, I don't know, use Outseta. But like, ⁓ so

1:25:27Julian Galluzzo: ⁓ Our value proposition in a vibe coded world significantly drops even if we do what we do in Webflow in an extremely easy way ⁓ when someone can say, you know go ahead and build my auth with Supabase or ⁓ With convex or with clerk or with whatever ⁓ and it's ⁓ still pretty easy, you know our value proposition in a big way drops so the thing is, ⁓ like I said at the start of this, Webflow ⁓ is not ⁓ going anywhere. And I think that people should take a lesson from Memberstack in a big way of what we're doing, which is, you know, the vast majority of our team is focused on Webflow as a product, on the Webflow community, and on how can we support the Webflow community ⁓ as we have been for years. ⁓ That is what we want to keep doing. At the same time, ⁓

1:26:21Julian Galluzzo: We're turning Memberstack into a phenomenal product that you can use on projects which you've I've coded as well. But along with that, ⁓ we ⁓ understand what is happening and that. A lot of people are going to start building, especially web apps and things that need authentication outside of Webflow. And so what you need to do is apply your expertise, your knowledge and your network to the future. So like I said, the vast majority of our team's time and effort and resources is still focused on what's making us money, which is, you know, being the best option for the Webflow community.

1:27:02Julian Galluzzo: And we're gonna keep doing that is our primary focus as a product at Memberstack that being said we're in the tech space ⁓ where the lifespan of things is extremely short and you need to understand that this isn't something where you know a tech product that's big today is gonna be big in 50 60 years Absolutely not all the things we use today are gonna be dead in 50 60 years so how much time do we really have? How much time do we have as a company to continue being a sustainable business while focused on Webflow? Same thing for anyone watching this, freelancers, agencies who are focused on Webflow. How much time do you have?

1:27:41Julian Galluzzo: It's not gonna be a thing forever. I think we're well aware of that. But do you have 30 years? Do you have 20 years? Do you have two years? What is it? And so what you need to do, and when I was talking to James from Progolis, he said something to me, which I'm like, that's a really great way to put this. And that is, you have a cow and it's an amazing cow and you milk this cow and this cow produces milk and it's your prize cow. Webflow and the Webflow community and everything to do for me and for the rest of our company is this cow. It's this big beautiful cow that produces so much milk and we love this cow. And the thing is, how old is the cow? Maybe six years, seven years, eight years. This cow is not gonna live forever. It might live another 15 years, might live another 20 years and it might die tomorrow. We don't know. That being said, the last thing you wanna do.

1:28:37Julian Galluzzo: Is say, this cow is getting older, throw the cow to the side, and then find some other random cow that maybe doesn't even produce milk. You don't know. What you need to do if you want to be smart right now is keep giving this cow the love and attention it deserves. Keep being a Webflow developer. Keep building in Webflow and keep making money from Webflow for all my agency owners, freelancers. That is my advice to you. This is a big, beautiful cow and it's gotten you here. Don't abandon it, okay? But with that being said, the cow is not gonna live forever.

1:29:12Julian Galluzzo: Things are changing. That cow might not be around in two years. That cow might not be around in 20 years. You don't know. And so what you need to do is while you're over here milking cow A, this probably looks funny with my hand off screen, but... Find another cow! Find a lovely young cow that you see potential in. And pay attention to that cow too. Don't abandon this one, but... Don't, you know, you don't want to be that guy who's sitting there milking his cow and then one day the cow drops dead ⁓ and that cow is all you've ever known... You know, you don't want to do that. You want to be milking this cow, but understanding that eventually this cow is going to drop dead. So I have my other cow

1:29:54Julian Galluzzo: Here and I'm ready ⁓ for that. I don't want this cow to drop dead and I'm not going to act like it's already died because it hasn't, but at the same time it will eventually. And so I'm ready for that to happen. And so ⁓ that is in a nutshell what we're doing at Memberstack. We love Webflow. We love our big cow. It's, you know, it's everything my life. ⁓ is built on Webflow. Every bite of food that my children have ever eaten was paid for pretty much by the Webflow community and ecosystem. And I do not take that for granted. Neither do the rest of us here at Memberstack. That being said, we aren't just going to pretend that this cow is immortal. And I think everyone should do the same thing.

1:30:42Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, this kind of brings us back to the start. I'm totally on board with the cow metaphor, but I believe that people are understanding that, but they would like to see the clear younger cow somewhere. But instead of that, they see just a bunch of possible decoys and whatever other animals. There are and so on so there's again the uncertainty of everything basically

1:31:12Julian Galluzzo: Yep, where is the next cow? What is the next cow? And that's something we don't know. We're looking, we're seeing a lot of animals, know, a cat's walking by and you're like, should I milk that cat? No, no, I'm not gonna milk that cat. That cow's never, that cat is never gonna produce as much milk as this cow. And then a buffalo walks by and you don't know, and then a sheep, and then, you know, where is this cow? And I think that is the discussion that really needs to be had so people can understand what is this cow that they should focus on. And if you ask me...

1:31:44Julian Galluzzo: The next cow is essentially building using the best tools, whatever those may be. Today it's Claude Code, tomorrow maybe it's not Claude Code, maybe it's Codex. The best hosting, in my opinion, is Vercel. Maybe tomorrow it's no longer Vercel. But the barrier to entry for all of these things has become so much less. And I think the next cow... Isn't what we're used to as webflow developers, which is it's not just another platform. It's not webflow. It's not framer it's just being a builder. It's everything it's building the best work for your clients in the best way that you see fit and it's not viewing these you know tools as religions that you have to cling on to the cow is not one company in this case the cow is a way of being which if you ask me as

1:32:35Julian Galluzzo: Individual, it is on just building the best things in the best way that I see possible. You have people who their cow is going to being focused on security and making sure that everything is secure and not going to get hacked. You're going to see people whose cow is designed and breathing taste into things. For me, my cow is just rapidly moving, rapidly building things. So everyone, I think, needs to find their own cow. I think we've all been sharing the communal cow as in Webflow for a long

1:33:06Janne Parri: You

1:33:07Julian Galluzzo: Time now. I don't think it's going to be a situation where people just jump ship and move on to the next cow. I think the next cow is a mixture of different things.

1:33:17Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah. I have to let you go at some point, but I still want to ask you about like, about the cows, about the cow fatigue. If someone is feeling like that there are so many tools, how can they like keep up with everything? What would you advise to those people?

1:33:34Julian Galluzzo: Okay, and look, I really, I'm doing my best to not just turn this into a sales pitch for the product that we're building, but I agree with that. The thing is, there are new, especially if you use Twitter, you use X, there's every day some new tools, some new workflows, some this, some that, and like my job in a big way is to test all of this stuff. And so I have time to go and scroll and find something and try it and share my thoughts on it. Most of the people watching this, you build for clients. You are busy. I mean, I'm busy, but this is my form of busy. Your busy is like you're working for clients in the way that you know all day, every day. Where do you even fit in time to figure out what's going on?

1:34:16Julian Galluzzo: And when I just start using Claude Code and then someone's like... Go ahead and use Codex and I'm like, okay. How do I do that? Okay, it's changed your workflow in this way I'm like, I just want to build I don't want to be sitting here and jumping back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and so basically what we have with Ship Studio is a product that gives you these workflows in an easy way. For example, I was told recently by Matt Evans about something called GSD, get shit done. It's something that you use and you connect to Claude Code and it like runs autonomously for you. It's so cool, right? So I had to read the read me file and figure out what it does and then figure out how to use it and integrate it into my workflow and like...

1:35:05Julian Galluzzo: You know, this is the thing that people don't have time to do. And so what I did after that was I made a GSD plugin for Ship Studio. So now anyone who uses Ship Studio can just go and click Install and try out this new workflow. Same thing, whether you want to host with Vercel, Cloudflare, Netlify, you know, whatever it may be, whether it's due to a client request. You just wanting to try stuff because your friend told you that for sells really great your friend is me you know, we are trying to build something which puts all of these different workflows

1:35:38Julian Galluzzo: In an easy to discover and easy to test out place and so that's really what we're doing with this product because that's the problem that we see now for anyone who's not using ship studio the thing is you need to set aside some time you need to if you're if you've gone a month and you haven't tried a single new tool you are falling behind, you know, I understand you don't have every single day to do that but if you say every month on the fourth friday I am going to spend four hours testing out whatever new thing I've heard about, do it. Because if I was just so busy and I never got the time to test out, you know, Claude Code, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today. Same thing, if that was the case with cursor, I'd still be using ChatGPT to make scripts for my Webflow sites. And if I never found the time to test out ChatGPT,

1:36:30Julian Galluzzo: Well, then, I mean, I think I'd be pretty far behind at this point in time. You know what I'm saying? Do not let that happen. Everyone that's mandatory when you work in tech you're not you know you're not a doctor who can go to school when you're 20 and then that knowledge rides you through until you're 60 if you stop working for six months and you come back and open your computer you're in a whole other world, you know, unlike the human body which doctors focus on we focus on computers and those things change rapidly so you must

1:37:05Julian Galluzzo: You must be setting aside the time to try stuff. You can't try everything, but you gotta try something. And you got to evolve and you can't get stuck just, I'm comfortable and I'm used to Webflow and I like it. No, no, what are you doing? What are you offering your clients and how can you do that better for them with whatever new tools may exist?

1:37:23Janne Parri: Beautiful. I think that kind of sums it up. We have still one weird section at the end, but before that, if people want to check you out, maybe follow you or even contact you, where should they go?

1:37:39Julian Galluzzo: X, I love and I hate that platform, but by and large, I like it. It's a really fun place. I met a ton of people there. I am sharing stuff every single day, ⁓ what I'm building. That is the main place. There's X, there is the Memberstack YouTube channel, and there's the Ship Studio YouTube channel. ⁓ Those are the three places, but if you want to hear from me personally, go to X and then I will post the YouTube videos on X. So that's where you'll find me.

1:38:09Janne Parri: Great. And I will obviously put all the links in the description. But Julian,

1:38:13Julian Galluzzo: Thanks for

1:38:14Janne Parri: Do you have any idea what the last section might be about?

1:38:18Julian Galluzzo: No, actually I don't. Enlighten me.

1:38:21Janne Parri: This is beautiful. This will come as a surprise. The last section is a little weird Finnish section. So what follows is that I will give you a Finnish saying and your job is to guess what that is about. So it can be like a metaphor, some sort of idiom or whatever I will translate that word for word to English, obviously. And yeah, are you ready for your saying?

1:38:48Julian Galluzzo: I am ready and I have to say languages are like my favorite thing and the Finnish language is so interesting to me. So yeah, I'm very, I'm excited to hear it.

1:38:59Janne Parri: Okay, firstly in Finnish, in Finnish it is laittaa luu kurkkuun. And word for word in English it is to put a bone in one's throat. So what does it mean if I say that I put a bone to your throat? What did I do to you?

1:39:19Julian Galluzzo: To my throat or like, in my throat? That changes things.

1:39:23Janne Parri: In, like, it actually goes in, like.

1:39:26Julian Galluzzo: That changes things. I'm gonna say... It means... Okay. I wanna ask for one more hint, but I'm gonna instead just guess and say... In a form of stopping yourself from talking. So I'm going to say like, for example, if you are, you make your money from Webflow and you love Webflow and you love the community, you're putting a bone in your throat without meaning to by not, you know, trying out other stuff. You know what I mean? Like, let's say not in the government form, but like censorship.

1:40:02Julian Galluzzo: Perhaps it's self-censorship, perhaps it's someone else. It's just, that's my guess. There you go.

1:40:07Janne Parri: That's a good logic, like in a way self will not harm but censorship. But yeah, that is close but not exactly right. So usually this is done to someone else. Like I do this to someone else and it basically in simpler terms means that I defeat someone. Or I say something so witty that I silence them in a way verbally. So defeat is maybe the easiest way to put that. So put a

1:40:41Janne Parri: Bone in one's throat. It's weird. I do not know where the logic comes from, but...

1:40:47Julian Galluzzo: I mean, there's- every language has its own idioms and phrases and the only people who don't know that are the people who only speak one language because, for example, if you are an English speaker and somebody says something like, break a leg, you know, break a leg, thanks! But if you said that in another language, for example, if you were walking up on stage and someone in Finnish said however you say in Finnish, break a leg, you'd be like, what? Why? Would I do that? Every language has its own things and I'm gonna give you one from Serbian.

1:41:17Janne Parri: Bring it on.

1:41:19Julian Galluzzo: I love this. I don't know why I always say it. And it literally means do not mix grandmas and frogs.

1:41:25Janne Parri: Hey, Grandma's in Frog's hole. What are we mixing like? Well, grandmas usually are not like the most beautiful women. So it is not like a...

1:41:35Julian Galluzzo: Don't tell your grandma that.

1:41:39Janne Parri: I'm trying to figure out the logic. We are like mixing up some sort of like results. Maybe it might be something that... I don't know, something along the lines of don't judge a book. What's the phrase? Of its like covers? Yeah.

1:41:55Julian Galluzzo: Don't judge a book by its cover. I'm going to give you one hint, and that is not that, but there is an English phrase that means the exact same thing. And ⁓ I will say it. And you may know it, you may not know it, and that's don't mix apples and oranges.

1:42:11Janne Parri: Yeah, closely like similar things that might seem like similar things, but I do, I wouldn't say that my grandma ever looked like a frog.

1:42:21Julian Galluzzo: Don't exactly they're different things don't mix them and so in this case what i'm going to leave you on is web flows a grandma and vibe coding is a frog or vice versa it really doesn't matter but at the end of the day they're such different things and your workflows change and everything changes the value that you get of a grandmother is you know lovely homemade pierogies or wherever your grandmother's from and what you get from a frog is nature and that beautiful croaking and they're both amazing they both do different things

1:42:53Julian Galluzzo: And we love both just like Webflow and vibe coding.

1:42:56Janne Parri: Beautiful beautiful metaphors. Okay. Thank you, Julia

1:42:58Julian Galluzzo: Thanks, Stephen.

1:43:00Janne Parri: This was a blast thanks for being a guest at all the listeners watchers don't mix the grandmas and frogs

1:43:04Julian Galluzzo: You. Thank you.

1:43:07Janne Parri: See you the next one bye

1:43:07Julian Galluzzo: Love to do it again. Take it easy. Bye bye.