On Webflow nostalgia, vibecoding, and starting over

0:24Janne Parri: Okay, Nelson. So people often talk about the Webflow community golden days on the show. And when they do, they always mention two things. Finsweet live streams and Pixel Geek, aka you. So how do you remember those days and how could we get the same feeling back?

0:44Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah, that's a great question to start off with. So the old days felt very tight knit. And when I started to take over those live streams, there was only had to be around 20 employees at Webflow. And so when I say tight knit, it was such a small startup. Again, it started with Vlad, Bryant, and Sergey. With this idea that they took to Y Combinator twice. And starting a hacker house, I was just very fortunate to have learned about Webflow back in 2013 and become an evangelist for it. I remember those live streams of just educational live streams. And when those two people who used to do live streams left, I decided to take over.

1:32Nelson Abalos Jr: And I wanted to run it in a different way where it's ⁓ celebrating the community, not just education, but also celebrating it. And so it was always tight knit because it had that feeling of this is something new. This is something different and we didn't need to tell the world. I always had this feeling of Webflow was like the next big step in web design because I was using Dreamweaver back then. Was working at a different, but before I started working at Webflow, was working at a corporate office that would use Adobe Experience Manager and everything was very code heavy. If you ever wanted to do something visually, you have to do it through code. And so this whole no code movement that Webflow helped start was just beautiful. And I kept saying, this will help designers and developers talk the same language faster. And it happened. It really happened. And I helped grow the community.

2:28Nelson Abalos Jr: Through the live streams, through touring America, going to different AIGA chapters, different meetup groups, and just talking about it and explaining what it does and teaching people. And so it felt real and new. Now, as with everything, things grow. I started as the 13th or 14th employee, second ever customer support rep. Then grew into Senior Product Evangelist after six and a half years there. And it was fun, it was new, and it felt organic. But again, things grow. And the company grew. And I remember having these feelings of going to one of the retreats and it was only 24 people and they were talking about this new thing

3:11Janne Parri: Hmm, yeah.

3:12Nelson Abalos Jr: Called Interactions 2. And I was like, this. Is amazing. Can do JavaScript visually. Amazing. And then it grew to 64 people. I'm like, this it's happening. Beautiful. Then it got to 200. And then there's this whole psychological thing of like when it's 64, some sort of number, it just starts to become bigger than you realize and you're like, I don't know these people anymore. Don't know ⁓ who do I talk to if I want to get answer for someone. Now it's well over 600 people, I think. And... so asking for that old feeling of being tight knit is a huge ask, especially when the community is so huge... The ⁓ software is...

4:04Nelson Abalos Jr: It has matured, it's over a decade, you know?

4:07Janne Parri: Hell yeah.

4:08Nelson Abalos Jr: And so it's like you're asking for a small tight knit feel for something that's global. And you're not gonna get that. You're not gonna get that feeling again. However, there is ways to still do that in the ways that you're doing right now, which is there's little pockets. Of the tight knit communities. It doesn't have to be all in one place. It just has to be little pockets and there could be like this Webflow and friends cool and there's this other one. There could be another community just about a certain subtopic of Webflow so that works. But that old school feeling you know it's not it's not going to come back but you can still do it with these little things.

4:55Janne Parri: That's probably why people call it nostalgia, like that isn't coming back. But we can do like new stuff and the next generation can have their own stuff. And I'm kind of hopeful, Webflow is clearly doing stuff with the community, revamping the global leaders, there's community fund and so on and so on.

5:15Nelson Abalos Jr: Well, there's the thing. It shouldn't be the Webflow team handling community, because it is too big. The community is too big. If the community really rallies together, it shouldn't be about the number of community members. If there's 10 people, just 10 people in a small community, that rally together and talk about Webflow in their own little pocket, probably some small city. That's beautiful because it's about the quality of these friendships, not the quantity. And that's what matters more. So what I'm saying is people like you, just worry about if you're making quality connections. Don't worry about.

6:04Nelson Abalos Jr: How many connections you're making because there is a butterfly effect. And if you're making someone one person a day smile, then you've done your job.

6:12Janne Parri: Yeah, that's beautiful. And that's the way we should like think about that. Webflow obviously can do stuff and they wanna do stuff to help the community. But after all, it's about the community members and what they do and how they build the community. Okay. Before we forget, we have to do little intros. So my name is Janne Parri and you're listening to Webflow and friends podcast. And my guest today is none other than Nelson Abalos Jr. AKA the Pixel Geek. As we talked, many of us remember Nelson from the Webflow tutorials. They have helped many of us.

6:57Janne Parri: So much so much so that as Nelson said he worked at Webflow at one point nowadays you run studio called that one couple with Jessica and on top of that you're building your own app and we're gonna talk about all of that. But firstly if there are people who haven't seen you for a while. Could you catch us up and tell us what has happened? Since those Webflow tutorial days.

7:27Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah, so I'll be very honest and very vulnerable on this. So leaving Webflow was a tough decision, but mentally it was very taxing because I love working with small teams. I love trying out new ideas quickly. And when a company becomes so big, it's hard to do that. And it just weighed on me so much that I'm like, I think I need to step out. And I had this very selfish thought of, okay, if I leave, I should be fine, right? People know me. Projects and clients will just fall out of the sky and they'll ask for my help.

8:16Nelson Abalos Jr: Right? They'll hire me? Very selfish way of thinking. No, it didn't happen that way. Stressing out so much, trying to figure out who I was, who I am, because I'm no longer the Webflow person. So who am I? I don't know. So I think, I left in summer of 2023 and tried to do too many things all at the same time. Tried to create a thing called Hyophilia to help the community. Tried to create a kids workshop type of thing to teach kids how to use Webflow. And also start a studio with my wife. Started creative agency with my wife.

8:58Nelson Abalos Jr: I was stretching myself so thin, trying to find proper footing, trying to find a good foundation for my family. Wasn't working. Nothing was working. Thankfully, I had some few clients still hire me, but still it wasn't enough. It got to the point where I had to leave those two first projects and realize, yeah, these two projects, the kids workshop and the high affiliate, it's not working. I need to go back to what I do know, which is building things in Webflow. So my wife and I really sat down and said, OK, are you ready to do this? Are you ready to invest time and money into this? What do we even call this? We don't know.

9:45Nelson Abalos Jr: But we did do a podcast a while back called that One couple, that One Couple's podcast. And I guess it was just fate at that moment where I'm looking for domain names. I'm brainstorming ideas of like, what should we call ourselves? And then I was like, that one couple looked up that domain name and it was for sale. And I was like, whoa, obviously it's not for sale for the regular price of like 12 or $20 a year. No, it was a premium price and I'm like, are we ready to do this? Like I have my finger on the buy button. Like, are you ready? She's like, let's do it. Clicked it and we got that domain name, that one couple, which is beautiful.

10:29Janne Parri: I love that name.

10:30Nelson Abalos Jr: Thank you. Thank you. And so that's it. It's been such a roller coaster with this agency. And before recording, I was asking about you and your family and that first year of an with a newborn, that's what it also felt like for starting this agency. It felt like, why did I even do this? I can't sleep at night. I have no idea what I'm doing, but because you know you have to do it and you're doing it for your family.

11:00Nelson Abalos Jr: You're going to keep going, no matter what. If you love your family enough, you will take that next step, knowing that you don't know what the F you're doing. And went from really low finances to, my god, we had a record-breaking year. And we won an award till last year, the last six months. It took six months, quarter four of last year, to now to get one new client. And it is such a roller coaster. Learning more and more, you take one step forward every day and never give up because you're doing it for your family. And it is so worth it at the end of the day. So yeah, it's like having a newborn.

11:43Janne Parri: Beautiful. And thanks for being so open with all the stuff. And I can just like imagine what it can be like, obviously every freelancer knows that there's, there is the feast and famine stuff and views do not equal like actual sales and so on. So that is, that is tough, but I'm already curious. How are you sharing the responsibilities with the agency with your wife? Are you doing like stereotypically the technical stuff and your wife the more visual stuff or what are your responsibilities?

12:23Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah, it is the typical thing. She's more of a creative as you can see in my background she made it more creative than my blank white wall that I'm looking at I'm more technical and so yeah, yeah when it comes to sharing responsibilities we make sure when we make business decisions. It is 50-50 We want to make sure both of us are on the same page and we had to learn like any other business with partners, you have to over communicate. You have to find compromises. There will be times when you get frustrated with each other, you know, you get frustrated knowing you're trying to come to a better solution that works for not just yourself, but for the business at whole. And it's another layer when it affects your family directly.

13:14Nelson Abalos Jr: And so it's been a interesting ride, but we've learned so much and we're so grateful for each other's strengths and weaknesses and we help each other out as much as possible.

13:29Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah. And I believe there are quite many who like dream of having some kind of business with their spouse. And I'm, one of them. My wife does not have a profession that would suit well with mine. But anyways, I'm always throwing her some like a side hustle ideas and so on, but she has not, got into those but yeah, do you have any like Advice for people who are thinking of maybe doing some business stuff with their spouse?

14:01Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah, I feel super grateful that we work in the same industry but in two different ways it as far as advice to people who want to work with their spouse, I mean you have to find a common need, you know for me. I'm not much of a designer, but I can understand what looks and feels good for websites and apps. For her, she cannot think about how backends wire up with different platforms and whatnot, but she has a kind of understanding and an interest in it. So I think that's the tip I would give. If you can find a common interest in something, that not only helps your relationship, but also helps with whatever project or business venture you're going into.

14:54Nelson Abalos Jr: Because if you're both not interested, then if one person has a project that you're like, we should do this, and the other person is like, yeah, that's cool, you know, it's not going to go far because you're trying to pull them along.

15:09Janne Parri: That's so true. What about like, boundaries? Do you have like some sort of boundary that after 5pm, no more business talk or anything like that, or are you wearing your business hat at all times?

15:20Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah, we've learned each other's boundaries and based on body language or tone of voice, we know when's a good time to talk and when's not a good time to talk. When someone, when one of us is just overwhelmed at the moment and they don't want to even talk about business, then it's like, OK, I'll keep a reminder. I'll put a note or I'll jot down my thoughts on a Google Doc and we'll get back to it later. So there are boundaries as far as when is there like a certain hour cut off. I mean, for her there is and she's learned that. But for me, I'm always a tinkerer. I'm always trying to

16:00Nelson Abalos Jr: Come up with ideas. And that's why I'm like, all right, I'll talk about this idea tomorrow because, you know, I don't want to bother her. Her space, I don't want to bother her, time off. So there is boundaries.

16:16Janne Parri: Totally. Beautiful. Actually about like that one couple, if we go to more practical stuff, I'm always curious about people's like processes, ⁓ like, ⁓ how do you do, or let's start with what kind of projects do you do? Do you do like mainly websites and does it always end up in Webflow or do you do ⁓ all sorts of other things too?

16:40Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah, still our websites are in Webflow. Our process is still traditional. But we... We really listen to the client's story. And the reason why is because we don't just build websites or brands just to get that money. No, we truly care about the hobbies of our clients, the dreams that they have, the mission that they have for their business. We want that to stand out. And so whenever we build websites or build brands,

17:12Nelson Abalos Jr: It's all from a place from the heart, from a real story. Because as we know, you can prompt anything in AI and it'll give you a basic ass website. Cool. You know, it'll get the job done. It's a V MVP. But if you look at our portfolio, you'll see that one of our best sites, sabrinajeffries.com has a story and sure she sells books. But there's a story behind it. And you can feel that story from the first load all the way through every page of the website. So that's what is unique about our process, is that we're not there just to build a site. We're there to embrace, explore, and celebrate your unique story.

17:58Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. And how do you get that out of, out of the client? Do you use some tools like storyboarding or some other narrative tool or yeah. How do you get that out of your clients?

18:11Nelson Abalos Jr: We do the old school way of listening. We listen, we have conversations. For Sabrina Jeffries, we learned that she's an avid bird watcher. She loves birds. We learned that her child, just like ours, is on the autistic spectrum. And so we connected to her with those stories. And we celebrated that kind of feeling of she loves flowers. And yeah, you can see all of that on her website. You get that feeling immediately. And the power of just listening rather than trying to get a website done. Mean, the hype of AI, I totally understand. But people forget that

19:01Nelson Abalos Jr: Brands are built on human stories. You cannot AI that. You can AI website, you can AI a logo, but you cannot AI a human-felt emotion. And that's what we do.

19:14Janne Parri: Totally. And you can like try to manufacture some kind of story, but people will feel that it is not like authentic or anything, anything like that. And I have seen that website you are talking about and I will link that. Down in the description. It's a beautiful site and people should check it out. But kind of relating to this, you also declare a quite interesting niche for that one couple. I have to check it out. You specialize for clients who are women and minority owned businesses in the tech industry. So how did you...

19:54Janne Parri: Find that or come up with that or did it find you?

19:58Nelson Abalos Jr: So this niche, we started to focus on it more because... Again, we want to focus on the real stories. Being in the tech industry, there's so many new platforms out there, so many new tools, so many new apps that, let's just face it, people are just trying to publish something, get that money, get the quick exit, and move on to the next thing. And we're not about that life. Call us old school, but we actually care about the humans.

20:30Nelson Abalos Jr: So. Focusing on people who need, focusing on more of an industry, more of a target that we can listen to more and help elevate their voices is what we want to do. And that's what my wife has been helping out with so many nonprofits and some of these woman-owned businesses that I'm like, yeah, I want to work with them more because They're more fun, you know? They're not

20:58Janne Parri: Hmm.

20:59Nelson Abalos Jr: About that tech bro life of let's get the hype up real quick. Let's get as much data. Let's get as much users. Make that quick exit. Boom, let's make another one. And it's like, that is a never ending grind that I'm

21:14Janne Parri: Hell yeah.

21:15Nelson Abalos Jr: Unsubscribing to.

21:16Janne Parri: Yeah, you sold me that niche like I'm thinking that maybe I target more. Relaxed clients but how can you sell or how are you able to sell that story based, listening based, like service in this like AI-filled world

21:36Nelson Abalos Jr: I mean, again, it took us six months to find that next new client. And it's tough because it is such a niche. And we haven't been networking enough. We haven't been advertising ourselves enough. And this is something new to us. We had a, again, record breaking year last year. But it feels like AI has has dried up a lot of our referrals. And we had to look within ourselves and say, OK, what do we change? What haven't we done? And my business coach, the one thing he always tells me is, if I feel like I'm giving up, remember that you haven't turned over every stone. And I'll be honest, like, during that dry spell, it really felt like

22:25Nelson Abalos Jr: I think I'm done with tech... There's a point where I'm like, I just want to ⁓ be a cashier at Costco or target. Like, I think I'm done. You know, like I'm so burnt out with tech. It's that never ending grind. But help with friends. It's ⁓ it's been helping me help from talking to friends, help talking to coaches. But more importantly, ⁓ I guess natural segue is building the Nova up app, which has helped me

22:53Janne Parri: Mm-mm.

22:54Nelson Abalos Jr: Do so many different things that I would have never done.

22:57Janne Parri: Yeah, Nova Up app is obviously your new app and it's interesting. I'm not gonna try to describe it. I'll let you do it. So what does do?

23:10Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah, so Nova Up is a way for you to micro journal and realize how awesome you are. What I had to do to finally realize you need to build this was... At the end of beginning of April, I was just laying in bed and been spiraling down no clients for ⁓ five months. ⁓ I mean, last year it was OK, ⁓ not much work is coming in. You know, it's the end of the year. People are celebrating holiday. OK, I get it. Nothing yet in January. OK, people are just getting back to work. You know, like, OK, I get it.

23:49Nelson Abalos Jr: February goes by. March. Nothing. I'm a failure. No one cares about this. I should do something else. I don't know what I'm doing in my life. Should I even be here right now? Like so many negative thoughts, negative thought after negative thought, spiraling down. And again, be honest, like didn't even want to shower. Didn't want to get up out of bed. Didn't want to do anything. I'd rather doom scroll and play video games. Because I don't know what to do. Why should I even post on YouTube? Why should I do anything on social media? Like, I'm a failure. That's it. Just negativity after negativity.

24:25Nelson Abalos Jr: Then as I'm laying in bed, I'm typing on my phone, I'm like, okay, what do I wanna build if I didn't have a budget, if I didn't have a timeline? What do I want to just create? And I just remembered last year I wanted to make an achievement tracker just to track. Oh, like you know, whenever you have one ones with a boss or annual review with a team... It's like, oh, you have to put in what did you do this year? You

24:56Nelson Abalos Jr: Know, and that whole corporate feeling of prove yourself to us, you know, and you're like scrambling. Oh, what did I do this year? I forgot I didn't write it down. But then that idea turned into me finally getting into the Vibecode space, thanks to Raymar, if you remember him from the Webflow Community days. He works at Replit now and keeps telling me about it. And I'm like, OK, I'm going to try Replit. And I just typed inside of Replit build me an achievement tracker to help boost my confidence. And at the end of every week, have AI generate a summary.

25:31Nelson Abalos Jr: Of what I've just done for the week. And it built it. And I was like, oh, wow. It did the marketing page. It did the front end, the back end. It wired everything up. Let me log my first thing. I got out of bed. Submit. Achievement tracked. I was like, oh, that felt pretty good. Let me do another one. And another one. I didn't realize what I was doing.

26:01Nelson Abalos Jr: I was putting in everything I was doing. And at the end of the week, I got this letter. I didn't think it would become a letter. I thought it was just gonna be a bullet point summary of like, here's what you did. But it wrote me a letter from a mentor saying, look what you did. You actually got up and you're making beautiful steps to a better life. And I straight up teared up. I was like, I'm actually doing something and it feels good. So from April 6th today, I've been logging everything, getting out of bed, walking for two minutes, walking for five. I'm now walking two miles every morning. I've joined a boxing cardio class. I'm taking care of my hygiene.

26:52Nelson Abalos Jr: I've realized that I've created an app that helps me, that helps remind me to look around and be grateful for every little thing. The fact that I have a bed to sleep in, the fact that I can walk for two minutes or more, the fact that there is another day, I'm like, this is beautiful. And that is what I want to share with everyone else because not only every week do you get this letter from a mentor.

27:24Nelson Abalos Jr: But every month and every year, you get like a Spotify wrapped

27:29Janne Parri: Mmm.

27:30Nelson Abalos Jr: Where AI categorizes what you've done. And it's such a, to me, such a beautiful thing because the more you log, the more the AI can tell you how awesome you are. And instead of just consuming things at, for a whole year and Spotify saying, hey, look what you consumed. Congratulations. This is more of, hey, look what you did for the past month and the past year. And I didn't create this story, you did. So the next time you look in the mirror, that's you and you're awesome. And so I'm putting so much time and effort into Nova Up. Right now it's a web app.

28:15Nelson Abalos Jr: And I'm building the Android and iOS versions. One day it'll come soon, but right now my wife is doing the branding. Yeah, that's Nova Up and I don't know what else to say about it.

28:30Janne Parri: That's beautiful. You sold that beautifully. Yeah, firstly on the idea itself, that's so beautiful because I have and probably quite many, others have experience with all sorts of habit tracking apps. Like people have read the Atomic Habits or power of Habits and... Then they, then they like try to keep some habit going. And usually the apps that help with that work in a way that you get punished if you don't do that. So it's kind of like

29:04Janne Parri: The other way around, like giving you reward when you do something. So that's a beautiful idea. And I will surely be trying that out, but I'm curious about this whole vibe coding thing. What have you learned? Was there some expectations that were broken and what are you planning to do next?

29:28Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah, so Replit was my first, like I said, first tool to get into vibe coding. I was so scared of it, thinking, this is just cheating. This is just for tech bros. But that's just me being scared of something new. Finally did it. And it has literally changed the way I think about AI. And of course, it literally changed my life for

29:54Janne Parri: Hell yeah.

29:55Nelson Abalos Jr: The better. So the way I thought about AI, like I said, felt like it was just for people who wanted to cheat. But now I understand. Just like Webflow, it is a way to get things done faster. And just like Webflow. If you don't understand the fundamentals of the medium that you're building for, then this tool would take you a longer time to understand and to use, or you'll just come out with something super basic. It is just a tool. So for people who are using AI for the first time and don't know AI,

30:29Nelson Abalos Jr: Anything about HTML or CSS and they expect it to make a website it'll make it but if there's bugs you're gonna spending a lot of time and a lot of tokens to fix those bugs if there are design changes you want to do and you don't understand CSS or even the box model you're gonna spend a lot of time and a lot of tokens trying to fix something super simple that a real web designer developer can fix immediately and that's what I'm learning with AI right now. I've never built a Android or iOS app, and I know I'm spending way too many tokens for fixing things. But just like paying for education, that's what my mindset is. It's teaching me. I'm reading through what it's telling me.

31:16Nelson Abalos Jr: And it's telling me to do these steps, telling me, this is how you submit it to an app store. This is how you make builds. This is how you test. I'm learning from it. If you think about it that way, it's much cheaper than going to a boot camp or signing up for a course or actually going to university for these lessons. I like hands-on learning and this is working for me. So that's what I think about AI. You can make the most basic stuff, but in the end, if you don't understand the fundamentals, you're going to be wasting time or you're going to be learning a lot. So it's up to you.

31:51Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah. And I feel like there's the same issue with many things. Like the social media tells a story that you can like one shot something totally awesome with these tools in 10 minutes or something like that.

32:07Nelson Abalos Jr: That only works for marketing teams who want to sell you the dream. It is not real. But that's what marketing is. They try to sell you on a sizzle reel of, I mean, MKBHD, Marques Brownlee has talked about this just recently, the Android I.O. Livestream. Where they showed someone with the new Gemini intelligence, a picture of a concert poster. There's just passing by in the street. There's a concert happening. Take a picture, ask Gemini to buy tickets, and it magically bought tickets for them immediately. That's not how it works. And so he tweeted that out and called Google out on it. And someone from Google responded saying, we could

32:57Nelson Abalos Jr: Of course, you'll be able to see the seats before you actually purchase, but we couldn't fit those steps into the sizzle reel. But again, it's marketing. They want to sell you one of the dream. But when actually when you actually use it, you know, your mileage may vary.

33:15Janne Parri: Yeah, totally. What about if we talk specifically about Replit and your experience, have you found anything that you would like to bring from Webflow to Replit?

33:27Nelson Abalos Jr: So I haven't tried Replit to Webflow yet because there's no real MCP connector. There is one with Claude to Webflow. And so I've tried Claude to Webflow and I'm like, OK, very interesting. It can make the sections. It can make things. But my first try at the Webflow MCP and Claude connection turned out really bad. Again, this is someone who's never vibe coded, and I'm like, let me just follow Webflow's own tutorials, their own documentation on how to connect these two things. And when I learned what an MCP really is, I was like, I was scared of that acronym. Now it's like, it's just like API. OK, makes sense. Then I was able to go into Claude, connect.

34:13Nelson Abalos Jr: Connect Claude to a test project. And I said, OK, the first thing I did was copy a prompt from Webflow's documentation, paste it into Claude. And it was a long prompt, but basically it's like use Swiper JS to make a slider. It didn't work. I was not impressed. The slider images were really tiny and I told Claude, make the images bigger. And it could it for some reason and I was like, this should be simple. Sliders have gone all the way back to the WordPress 1990s days, right?

34:56Nelson Abalos Jr: So. I'm like, okay, not impressed. Let me try something else. Let me try a whole new page in this project, completely blank. And I told Claude, make me the most easiest thing ever that everyone does. Make me a logo marquee. Everyone does that, right? It built it, but you know how a logo marquee is just a repeat of the same row? So it's duplicate content going like this and the other one goes here and then it's yeah.

35:26Janne Parri: Have seen your tutorial on logo marquees.

35:30Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah, well, this is from Claude and AI and it put the two rows on top of each other and so it would just go like this. And so there'd be a lot of blank space on the right and I'm like. This is the most overused type of component. In the world for marketing sites, how can I? How can it not get this so I wasn't impressed, but I know it can do basic things. But I would rather do it myself. So it's probably still beta, it's probably not there yet, but I try to stretch the limits even more because one of the things I've always hoped for from Webflow is a page branch system for the little guys.

36:13Janne Parri: Hell yeah.

36:14Nelson Abalos Jr: Why is it locked behind Enterprise? Just a simple, like right now for the little guys like us, we have to duplicate a page and hope that we don't break any of the styles when we're trying to do something new on a live site. So I think page branching was since 2022 or something, I don't know, but because it's locked behind Enterprise, said, OK, Claude, since everyone's hyping you up, let's make a page branching system. And here's my concept. I want you to duplicate a page that I'm on, or at least copy all the elements on the page I'm on, and then paste it on a new page, and just name that page like

37:08Nelson Abalos Jr: Version two or version B or something. And after you paste all the elements, I want you to come up with a random four-character prefix for each class name and rename all the classes. So duplicate each class that's being used and give it that new name with the prefix. And then when I change some stuff around in the styles, when I tell you to merge, do a diff. And only update the styles that I've updated and merge everything back in. It was able to do it. Sure, it took a long time, but it's cheaper than buying enterprise. And so

37:46Nelson Abalos Jr: To me, I'm like, the power is there, but it's like, you know, it's like. I'm probably going to do this one, use this tool that I made in cloud one day, but until then, yeah.

38:02Janne Parri: Yeah. The MCP, when it first came out, it was quite rough and I heard and I had similar experiences with it. Now it has gotten some updates. I tested it out some day back for a little while. Did nothing too fancy with it, but I'm hopeful for the MCP. It can already do some stuff like your example. You've just gave. Like I'm hopeful that it can do a lot in the future and in an efficient way, because at some point people were like burning so much tokens when they were using that.

38:43Nelson Abalos Jr: But that's the thing MKBHD always says you said I'm hopeful and here's the thing when it comes to software or even hardware buy the things that it can do today not for what you hope it can do in the future because that's what marketing always sells I mean remember Apple intelligence. Those are gonna be on the next iPhones next year where did it go?

39:09Janne Parri: That is so true. But I would say that Webflow is not advertising too much the MCP. They are betting big on the AEO stuff and those features. That's interesting. And obviously everybody is waiting for their like some sort of native AI feature and maybe that could come out.

39:28Nelson Abalos Jr: Well, they already have the AI components.

39:31Janne Parri: Yeah, the components, but some sort of like, the same thing that MCP does, like it could like handle the designer build stuff for you, maybe even with your preferred framework and so on. So that would be awesome. Hopeful for that. And I guess that they kind of have to do something like that to keep up with the times. Wouldn't you agree?

39:56Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah, I mean, it's still it's still the leader when it comes to granular controls. I mean, I still love how I can fine tune the CMS to exactly what my clients need. Sabrina Jeffries just has a team of her publisher and assistant and herself. And Sabrina Jeffries herself is, think, 70 years old. And she can use Webflow. I mean, in the in the marketer or content editor mode, I've fine tuned the back end to make sure that she can maintain her website with hardly any stress. And that's what I love about Webflow, that I can fine tune every little thing. And yeah, and maybe one day it will be cool.

40:47Nelson Abalos Jr: I can build a tool where it's like, okay, now I can make Webflow even easier if you just tell Siri or Gemini, hey, make this fix on my website, you know, for the 70 year old to say like, hey,

41:01Janne Parri: You

41:01Nelson Abalos Jr: I have a new book sale for this certain book. It's gonna be 50 % off for two weeks. And then it just does it. I mean, that would be. Beautiful, you know, but again hopeful for something like that and that's why I still like Webflow for the granular controls

41:20Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, I have to ask this is a topic for all almost like every episode. But since you brought up the system, like what framework did you use? Like maybe client First, Lumos or that sort of thing. And how do you use like components and how you use those?

41:40Nelson Abalos Jr: I may be very old school, but I try to keep things as minimal as possible. I don't use frameworks, but I use my own class naming convention because I try to keep things as lightweight as possible. When it comes to me, when it comes to using frameworks, you're getting the ideas of someone else's process. If that process works for you know, I'll celebrate it. That works for you. But there's no such thing as one size fits all. You know, there will always be some little thing you need to change. And as we know, the Webflow styling, whenever you're adding class name on top of a class name on top of a class name, things could get really

42:28Nelson Abalos Jr: Confusing and so I try to keep things as straightforward as possible. I'm very interested in Lumos and how that wizard, Timothy Ricks, how he does his

42:39Janne Parri: You

42:40Nelson Abalos Jr: Things with the attributes and I found a class enhancer Chrome extension that I want to play with more where it, I don't know if you heard of that Chrome extension, but like you can add and delete classes. Without making combo classes, it's like, yeah, one of those things like, man, this would be awesome if we had this in the beginning. So it's awesome to see what the community is doing with frameworks and other add-ons that you can enhance your workflow experience. Yeah, I just keep it as simple as possible and it has been working for us.

43:12Janne Parri: Beautiful. And I'm also curious, do you make it so that the clients can update those? Do you have any best practices for that?

43:26Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah, so the clients that we usually work with aren't inside of Webflow. They're mainly just editing content. So again, small businesses ⁓ under 100 people in their team. And so we focus mainly on making the CMS work for their exact needs. I guess just to end this thought, we like to think about it as a way of building a house for someone. And once ⁓ they love the house and approve the construction, we give them the keys to their house and we give them tutorials on how to maintain their house. We don't ⁓ ever want to have a call or an email saying, hey,

44:06Nelson Abalos Jr: How do I move my furniture a little bit to the left? How do I have this new mirror I want to put on the wall? How do I do that? Just like saying, how do I create a new blog post or add a new book to my website? We don't want to handle those calls. You should be empowered to do that all on your own. Only call us if you need a new room or a new page on your site that's a one-off. Like, hey, I'm having a book tour. So I want to design it just a little bit different and celebrate that more. That's when you call us. That's more fun than content editing.

44:43Janne Parri: Yeah, totally. And the CMS is one thing I mentioned those components earlier. And I've been like tinkering with the MAST framework and the Lumos framework. And those have like very robust component system. Obviously you can do a lot with components nowadays with all the slots and properties and so on. But at some point, it comes so complex that it is again hard to use, especially if you hand that to your client. Like it is not like

45:23Janne Parri: Easy as it can be at you still need to train the client to use whatever you build. So yeah, that's one thing I'm like thinking how could I do the system that could be even more simple, even more easy and still have all the right controls?

45:43Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah, nothing wrong with frameworks. Great ideas from both Lumos, from all of those frameworks, mass, knockout, Client-First, Lumos, like all of those that the community has built. Great ideas. But the beauty of Webflow is you can mix and match. Can make your own from the ground up and at the end of the day, just do what's good for the human, not just do what everyone else is doing.

46:09Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, that is true. Okay, ⁓ I want to kind of ⁓ circle back to the AI stuff. We talked about the control you love and I love the control that we have in Webflow. How granular or how precise control do you have when you build Nova up with replicates? ⁓ Do you ever dream that there would be some features from Webflow you could use or anything like that?

46:36Nelson Abalos Jr: I mean, with Replit, I did tell it, can you update the homepage, the marketing homepage with this type of content? And also, let's give it a dark mode so it can handle that. But I wish there was a Webflow UI layer where I can just move things around, edit the CSS. Edit the HTML in a visual way like Webflow. That would be awesome for me, because then I have the best of both worlds. But right now, I think there is this up and coming app called Magic Path that I'm actually going to explore today.

47:17Nelson Abalos Jr: And I asked Gemini like, hey, I'm designing a lo-fi version of my Nova Up app inside of Figma. Is there a way to take my lo-fi designs, import them into Magic Path? And so Magic Path would give me more granular controls on the designs and the layout, and then send that over back to Replit and tell Replit, hey, take this design and React code that Magic Path did and apply them to my Android and iOS apps. And so far, Gemini said, yeah, you can do that because Magic Path has a way to export React. And again, I don't know React.

47:59Nelson Abalos Jr: I don't know TypeScript. But if there's a way, then yeah. And so. Magic Paths seems to be that new tool that I'm like, okay, I think this will work. And if Magic Path becomes that visual UI layer for apps, it probably can be for websites too. But again, will it give me the granular controls? Will Replit or MagicPath or something give me the granular controls so that way I can give my clients an easy way to maintain their sites? Or can MagicPath send to Claude and Claude sends it to Webflow? I don't know, but there's gonna be a way one day.

48:40Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah. That's the thing that nowadays we have so many apps and so many potential like workflows and limited time obviously focus.

48:50Nelson Abalos Jr: Many tools, so much to learn.

48:52Janne Parri: I kind of feel like that AI was supposed to help us make us more efficient, but I at least feel that I have just like longer list of things that I should check out and learn. Like I should learn about all this coding stuff for me to be able to like check out and understand what the AI does for me. So, days. But this kind of brings us back to the frustrations of like the tech industry you earlier talked about that and I totally feel that thing like every time you get the feeling that okay stuff are stable and no new things need to be learned but then comes something big you might have to change the whole like process

49:41Janne Parri: That you have been building on and so on. And yeah, obviously the same things that like scare us also excite us. And it is this balancing act at least in my mind. Do you have any thoughts on how we can cope with those things?

49:58Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah. Mean, again, going back to the first quarter of this year of how I was getting depressed and that Depression stacks on when you have that self doubt, you're doom scrolling about what's going on in the world. You're going to social media and you're seeing everyone talking about this new AI tool and how they've learned something new. They've made $5 with their new app that they just built in two days. Someone built a website in five minutes for a client who paid

50:35Janne Parri: Hmm.

50:36Nelson Abalos Jr: $20,000. People are just hyping so many things. And in your mind, you're thinking, I am not doing any of this. I'm just sitting, laying in my bed, feeling worthless. I wish I can do what everyone else is doing. Who am I to even try? Right? But then you have to realize that this is all hype. People could be faking everything. People fake on social media all the time. Or if they're doing it, they're only showing the highlights of what they did. They're not showing all the failures that they did before.

51:16Nelson Abalos Jr: Get to where they are. But social media loves ⁓ that. They ⁓ want you to feel bad... Social media wants your attention. They watch... To me, what I felt was social media was making me feel worse and worse and worse about myself. Because every time I scroll, it's like, well, I suck. I can't do what... This person did. I can't 10x myself right now. I'm not good enough. But what I did learn was that I can, that whole atomic habits thing, can do that 1 % each day. And that 1 % was just me getting out of bed each morning. That 1 % turned into putting my

52:09Nelson Abalos Jr: My jogging pants next to my bed the night before. That next step was me putting my running shoes right beside the door to make me go walk. And when you think about the 1 % rather than the whole 10x your life, wake up at 3 a.m. And do

52:28Janne Parri: Hmm.

52:29Nelson Abalos Jr: Everything before everyone else wakes up. That is some bullshit,

52:32Janne Parri: Yeah, that is...

52:34Nelson Abalos Jr: Like, you think about those people who are going through that, who are like, hyping up like, I'm gonna do 500 pushups before anyone wakes up. Good for you, bro. You probably don't have a family. You know, you probably, you probably didn't grow up Asian where you're always thinking to yourself, I'm never good enough. You know, you probably didn't. You probably have a wonderful life and I applaud you but for everyone that's hyping themselves up so much and not showing their failures, that just shows how fake they are. I trust the people who are more vulnerable in showing what they're going through in life than the people who only show themselves as perfect. And I've always said this before, the people

53:21Nelson Abalos Jr: Who show themselves as the most perfect are the least perfect. The people who are trying to be perfect while knowing they'll never reach perfection are the most perfect. And I wanna follow those people.

53:37Janne Parri: That is so true. Now, I just had an idea if I posted all the AI experiment failures. I tried to one-shot this and nothing came out. All of

53:51Nelson Abalos Jr: Do it!

53:52Janne Parri: Those. That could be fun. But yeah, the language of social media is so weird. It's never like, check out this cool app. It's always like, you're gonna fall behind if you do not try or do this right now. Yeah.

54:08Nelson Abalos Jr: Designers are, designers are cooked. Look what Claude, look what Claude design can do now. And it's like, cool bro.

54:14Janne Parri: Yeah, that's...

54:15Nelson Abalos Jr: Yeah, we're cooked.

54:16Janne Parri: Have you thought, you probably have, but have you thought any like, screen time features for Nova app or anything like that so you could maybe get achievements for not doing certain apps or something like that.

54:34Nelson Abalos Jr: So when I think about Nova Up in the future of it, I want it to be the app that you only open once a week. I don't want your attention at all. At the end of every day at 5 PM, it'll send you a notification saying, hey, what did you do today? And just like a text message from the notification shade or the notification pull down, you can respond to it from that notification. Don't open the app, just respond to it. And then it'll log that win for you.

55:09Nelson Abalos Jr: I want it to also connect with Apple Fitness or Google Health apps. So when you close a ring on your Apple Watch or you have some, I also have it connected with Strava. And so when you finish an activity, a health activity, athletic activity, it'll automatically log your win inside of Nova Up. It's only at the end of the week, Fridays at 5pm. You'll get a notification that says, hey, your summary is for you and waiting in the app. When you tap on that, then it'll open up Nova up and then you can read your story.

55:44Nelson Abalos Jr: And that'll also happen for the monthly and yearly summaries as well. And so in the future, I would love for it to be like, I hope, I don't want to activate anyone's AI or anything, but

55:53Janne Parri: You

55:54Nelson Abalos Jr: Hey, S-I-R-I. Please log this thing. I walked for two minutes or I hugged my daughter today. I called my mom today. I responded to a difficult email today that I kept in my inbox for four days. I want people to log those things. They'll be cool through voice or something like hey G for Google, know, or hey S for Siri, and you never have to open the app. Because I want you to enjoy what's around you first and have yourself, your own mentor, but it's yourself actually, tell you how awesome you are. Yeah, that's the future of it. I would love to give you a screen share of what I have right now if you want.

56:44Janne Parri: Yeah, bring it on, bring it on

56:45Nelson Abalos Jr: Okay, so I will show you mine right here. So right now it's just a web app, again built by Replit and lots of tokens used. But yeah, here's today's wins. I've co-hosted a Twitter space this morning. At the same time, I did a 3.7 kilometer walk over an hour and this was logged by Strava. So

57:13Janne Parri: That's nice.

57:14Nelson Abalos Jr: Now today I'm going to add another win. I was a guest on Janne Parri's Webflow and friends podcast. And I can add a gratitude photo, which is one photo a day, to remind yourself of what you have now rather than focus on what you don't have. But I'm going to save that win. And I call wins sparks, because you're building your own constellation of these sparks. And that's it. Then you go on with your day. If you want to add more,

57:52Janne Parri: Beautiful.

57:52Nelson Abalos Jr: You just add more wins. And you can see that I've been logging everything ever since April 6. And so I worked on a another side project, I shared this, it was called the little Wins app at the beginning. Walk two miles and then at the last slide you get a words of affirmation. But this is the big part right here. At the end of every week, you get your summary. And I call it your story because it is the story that you built on your own. AI didn't make this story.

58:30Janne Parri: And you can already like listen to it.

58:33Nelson Abalos Jr: Yep. As you're walking, you can listen to your story. But like right here, keep noted. So this is what AI told me. But if you think about it, I told myself this. Keep noticing that you're not starting over anymore. You're stacking evidence that you can be consistent, capable, and reliable under real life conditions. If you keep moving the way you did this week, one build, one conversation, one workout, one act of care at a time, you're going to look back and realize you didn't just have a productive week, you built a stronger version of yourself.

59:06Janne Parri: That is beautiful.

59:07Nelson Abalos Jr: And lastly,

59:07Janne Parri: Yeah, bring.

59:08Nelson Abalos Jr: This is what the Spotify wrapped version looks like. So my month in review last month. 114 sparks captured. It shined brightest on the Mondays. And then it auto categorizes everything. So I did a walking routine. I started building Nova up more. I started to do more networking and break out of my shell. I started to get back on my YouTube channel. But the biggest one of all, I'm getting over, well, I'm calming my anxiety.

59:40Janne Parri: It's beautiful.

59:40Nelson Abalos Jr: And at the end, your monthly story. And that's Nova Up.

59:44Janne Parri: Yeah, I'm gonna log in right after this and do my first spark, obviously.

59:51Nelson Abalos Jr: Do it.

59:54Janne Parri: That's so beautiful. And how are those like mobile apps coming along? Do you have any estimates how long will it take for you to print those up?

1:00:07Nelson Abalos Jr: So I already have beta versions out for Android and iOS, and I'm testing them with my close friends. And after some testing, it's working. Still some bugs here and there, but I don't feel like it's ready enough to go beyond my close friends. Because if I were to take it out, publish it now to the app Store, I'm just rushing it. Why am I rushing it? For no reason. So my wife is working on the branding and I posted this on my YouTube channel, our process of how we brand stuff. And she's doing the whole mood boarding thing. But as she's mood boarding, I realized, the design that I have on the beta, it is basic. It is.

1:00:48Nelson Abalos Jr: Boring, there's no personality to it. I mean, you look at the marketing page right now of Nova Up, it was built by Replit. And again, it's basic, there's no personality. It's just text, not even images. There's icons, but it's just so basic, there's no branding. So I'm gonna wait for the branding to be done, but I can share. A Figma prototype of what I'm thinking about.

1:01:15Janne Parri: Please.

1:01:17Nelson Abalos Jr: All right, so. Prototype. Okay, so the onboarding experience. There you go. Every big change in life starts with a small spark. So this is the first time user experience. And this explains what a spark is in owning your story. And when you're ready to begin, you get a star, you know, and you log your first spark. And after you log it, your constellation

1:01:47Nelson Abalos Jr: Is being created. And then it asks you know, what are you grateful for right now? You know, it could be your feet, the fact that you're able to stand.

1:01:56Janne Parri: You

1:01:57Nelson Abalos Jr: It could be the bed that you got out of, you know, it could be the sky for the breath that you're able to take. All these little things we take for granted. And you save that moment and now you're ready to create an account. So very intentional. And as far as. Thinking of something should be here constantly moving. The whole thing, the whole brand of Nova Up is you're starting from the ground and you're moving up to space. And so what can be in this very open area to show you that? And when you're ready to put in another win or another spark, you press this very big button. You would click this.

1:02:44Nelson Abalos Jr: And here's your daily check-in. I walked for two miles in the morning. I washed the dishes. And then when I save a spark, then this is why I want to use Magic Path to help me with animations. But it's supposed to turn into a circle, which then turns into a star, and it goes out into space. So you've captured it and you let it out into space and it's helping you grow. It's helping you create your own constellation. And then if you want to add a photo, you can from either your camera or your gallery. I know. There's my wife and my

1:03:21Janne Parri: You

1:03:21Nelson Abalos Jr: Kids feet. And

1:03:23Janne Parri: You

1:03:24Nelson Abalos Jr: Then there you go. And yeah, that's about it so far. I mean, working on other things like the history tab. But I'm taking it one small step at a time and letting it happen naturally rather than trying to the whole, it needs to get out now. I need to get 100, 1000, 10,000 users in two months. I'm not about that life.

1:03:52Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, totally. And it's going to beautiful. I love those metaphors and those ideas of the animations and stars and constellations. And so, so cool. So cool. A little technical question. Does that all like live in replete? Like all the data is somewhere stored there or does it integrate to other places?

1:04:16Nelson Abalos Jr: So what's beautiful of Replit is that it, again, it did everything for me with a couple of prompts. It made the databases. I said, I want a membership feature and it automatically connected with clerk, which I never knew about, but it is an authentication layer. And I even told it, hey, because this is a micro journal, it's very personal to people. I don't want to see any of the entries. I need you to encrypt it." so Replit said, okay, sure. I'll encrypt everything. And so if I were to go into the database right now, all it is just numbers and letters. And I don't know what people are logging, but I still can see how many entries they are logging. And that makes me joyful because it shows that people are using it right now. There's 47 people and over 700

1:05:09Nelson Abalos Jr: Sparks logged within a month and a half. So people are using it.

1:05:12Janne Parri: Beautiful, yeah, hopefully we get it. Well, at least a little, maybe a big bump to those numbers after this one. I know that after the Friday, which is today, there will be at least one more person there.

1:05:24Nelson Abalos Jr: I appreciate that.

1:05:27Janne Parri: I was meaning to test it out before this, but then my prep work... Had to be done and then you were already on the call. So I didn't have the time, but now you have totally sold me on that idea. Such a beautiful thing. Kind of circling back to the AI thing, technical or non-technical people, would you recommend that they should like try out building something of their own? With these AI tools.

1:05:54Nelson Abalos Jr: Yes, but before then, I would say write down everything that you wish you can build, you know, and figure out which is the smallest thing of those in that list that you can build. And so for Nova Up, I had all these ideas. So it wasn't just Nova Up. Was at the time it was just called the little Wins tracker. So I had little Wins tracker, I had a freelancer job board, because who hasn't built one of those before?

1:06:29Nelson Abalos Jr: And other things like some dashboard for a link scanner to look for any broken links. I had all these ideas, right? All these ideas. But the one that seemed the smallest was the little Wins tracker, which is just a text input that saves to a database. And that's it. Yay, done. And so I would strongly suggest for people to make a list first, find the smallest one, and then go to AI and say, hey, can you build this for me, build this idea, and see where it goes. If you're really passionate about that idea, then

1:07:10Nelson Abalos Jr: Keep testing it, keep iterating with AI. If you start to get into a rabbit hole of like, oh, okay, this is getting too complex, then there's that moment of, do you want to spend more money on this or not? And one thing I did learn when building Nova up, and it was from my friend, is if you're building an app, don't think of the money first. Just think about how many people you can help. Grow the number of users first, not the amount of money that you want to monetize on. And additionally, if you're not using that app you're building, if you're not using that app every day, then people won't want to use it either. So

1:07:56Nelson Abalos Jr: Whatever that idea is, make sure that it's helping you. And if you think it'll help others, keep going with it. Let's start small.

1:08:04Janne Parri: Yeah, totally. I like, yeah, I like the possibilities that the AI is giving us. For the longest time, people had all sorts of ideas, but it was quite hard to execute on those. Now people can just try out maybe even bit more complex stuff. Coding is like complex, like doing all sorts of things like MVPs and such and like take another step not necessarily to go all the way but like do more by themselves that's a good thing that has come out of out of the AI obviously there's all

1:08:41Janne Parri: Sorts of negative stuff people are well aware of those too but yeah weird times we live in definitely okay, Nelson, ⁓ at some point I have to let you go, but do you have any closing thoughts, anything you want to add about Nova app, web coding, that one couple, Webflow, about anything.

1:09:02Nelson Abalos Jr: ⁓ man, I guess starting out with AI, people, ⁓ there's two sides to AI. There's like, my God, it's opening my eyes to ⁓ do even more. And the other side is AI is taking our jobs. After building Nova Up, I'm realizing that yes, ⁓ it is taking jobs, but at the same time, it is opening up new doors. As long as you go through that door and see what it's like on the other side. AI is a great way to help you learn even more into a space that you've never saw yourself in. But if you're curious about it, you can learn. I've never built...

1:09:41Nelson Abalos Jr: An Android or iOS app, and I'm going through the steps to build one without having to code it. And it's made me a better person because I'm doing it to help with my mental wellness, with my mental health, with my self care. I'm doing it for the humans. So AI can still help in a great way. As far as that one couple, I mean, check us out, thatonecouple.com, we still do things for awesome humans.

1:10:12Nelson Abalos Jr: When it comes to branding a web design and now web apps and mobile apps. So hit us up because we want to make sure that your unique story, your human story is celebrated. So hit us up. But lastly, and I've talked about this a lot, novaup.app. I just want to show you how awesome you are. Just for logging all those little things that we take for granted. So try it out, give me feedback, tell me what you wish would happen with the app, and yeah, I'll consider it. And I just wanna make one person happy each day. And if this little app can help you do that, then I've done my job. So yeah.

1:10:59Janne Parri: Beautiful. And I will obviously put all the relevant links down in the description so you can check those out. Okay, there's one weird little section at the end for the dedicated listeners. Do you have any idea what that could be about?

1:11:17Nelson Abalos Jr: No.

1:11:18Janne Parri: Beautiful. So this will be a surprise. Nothing to be scared of. This is a little weird Finnish section at the end of every episode and Finnish meaning like the language of Finland and yeah. What follows is that I will give you a Finnish saying and I will translate that to English and your job is to guess what that means. Is that clear? Beautiful. This saying is quite simple actually. So in Finnish it is kuin kaksi marjaa. And in English it is like two berries. What does it mean if I say to you that, okay, those things are like two berries.

1:12:05Nelson Abalos Jr: Those things are like two berries. So the literal sense would be, you know, two fruits. And if I take it even further in my head, these fruits can be two different types of berries, but they are still... Okay. To me... We can all be different, coming from different vines, different trees, different plants. But in the end, we're still part of this world. We're still part of this universe and Earth. And we're still connected by our own biology, by the atoms in our body. And we are still berries. We're still the same, no matter...

1:12:47Nelson Abalos Jr: What we think on the outside, but on the inside, we are still people who have struggles, who have wins. But as long as we realize that we are two berries trying to make it in this life and trying to feed our families for the next berries. We will make a great legacy.

1:13:06Janne Parri: Your brain works in so beautiful way. That is such a beautiful way to say it. And you are spot on. Maybe Finns do not use that as thoroughly or deeply as you described. But basically it means that those two things are similar, like they are the same. So you were kind of spot on with that. And I totally

1:13:29Nelson Abalos Jr: Thanks.

1:13:30Janne Parri: Love the way you think. Okay. I guess that is it for today. Thanks so much, Nelson, for being a guest and for all

1:13:37Nelson Abalos Jr: Thank you so much.

1:13:38Janne Parri: The listeners and all the watchers. We'll see you in the next one. Bye.