How To Build a WebflowPowerhouse in India

0:27Janne Parri: Okay. Himmanshu. So India is known for its tech sector and uh incredibly talented people but if I were to ask any Webflow person to name a single Webflow agency from India they would probably struggle to do so. Why do you think that is and what can we do about it?

0:47Himanshu Sahu: Yeah so I think it is not a talent problem. It is mostly like marketing issue. If you if you go and see any big company or any big agency globally in US or in UK, they most probably will have like people working from India in a contractual role or in a subcontractual role or they might be white labeling their work. Most of them are doing white label work. So, so they never come as the original creator of the project or the site and usually those big companies in US and UK take those credits and whereas if you see the real hard work was done by someone sitting in India and uh I think that's totally fair because they have signed up for this and both the parties have mutually agreed for this.

1:31Himanshu Sahu: Personally, if you ask me about my situation, I have stopped doing white label work for like past 2 years. And uh when I was a freelancer, I did a couple of gigs. But usually I like to do it in a more partnership and mutual way. So maybe this is the reason why. And I think even in India, we have like really some of the really good good agencies, but it's just that they are not marketing properly. I think even uh from my side I feel like we should market a lot and I just I think I think I should just invest more in marketing.

2:04Himanshu Sahu: I should do more of this podcast and uh try to share the name around the world. So yeah.

2:10Janne Parri: Yeah. Do you think that there's motivation to go abroad? I know that India is a huge country and there's probably a lot to do within the Indian market. But is there a motivation to grow overseas or over the borders?

2:25Himanshu Sahu: Definitely. I think if you ask me, I am myself very motivated to go globally. If you ask me how many clients do I have from India and how many I do have from US. So the US side will be more in the number and I'm aiming for more US and UK clients because definitely the pay is great, the pay is really good and uh the culture is really good and uh I actually want to do work with some of the really big companies and famous company. We recently even indeed work for with Amazon US deal with the signage deal and uh it was really really great project and it was a great experience as well with working with a very big uh logo and a crazy crazy crazy cool team.

3:04Himanshu Sahu: So I think definitely it is in the goal for every Indian to work globally.

3:09Janne Parri: Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. Okay. Before we dive any deeper, we have to do little intros. So my name is Yan Parare and you are listening to Webflow and Friends podcast. My guest today is Himanshu Sahu, the founder and CEO of Flowtrix. So Flowtrix is relatively young agency, but it became Webflow partner within a year of funding. Now you guys are a premium enterprise partner which means that you have reached the highest tier there is.

3:40Janne Parri: You were also already nominated for the Webflow partner agency of the year in 2025 which is totally cool and your team includes more than 10 people already. You have delivered a bunch of awesome projects through industries through continents. Your growth has been rapid and inspiring. But before we talk about that, I want to straight up ask you who is Himmanu Sahu and how did you end up running a Webflow agency from Bengaluru?

4:11Himanshu Sahu: So Himu Sahu is just a Chile guy sitting in India. He has a lot of briefs. So definitely when I was starting my journey I started as a web developer and uh I worked with few companies in freelancing did freelancing like I also worked with companies in US did freelancing there as well and eventually one day I decided to take a full design plus development project. I partnered with one of my friend and the project went really good and I thought that okay this is a good opportunity and then I formed the name Flowtrix and then the whole company and all eventually then the journey began of doing more projects one project after another I don't know how uh by god grace everything just started to fall upon and I think one project after another someone referred to me someone referred to me here and then eventually Flowtrix is like right now doing multiple projects across continents And we have also be been nominated as the top Webflow partner last year.

5:09Janne Parri: Yeah, that is so so cool. But I have to double down on the uh sales and the projects. You mentioned that uh projects just came in one one after another but it is never that simple. How did you find those first projects and like how did you find those international projects?

5:28Himanshu Sahu: So uh I think I the first project was like I just did a post on a LinkedIn that hey I'm looking for a gig and uh somehow a person reached out to me and that's how I got my first project and then eventually uh I started u sharing my work like I just I just did a dummy work and sharing my work uh with communities in WhatsApp and in Slack and in Discord as well. So I got few projects I did some freelancing and uh once my portfolio was built right people started discovering me through Google uh and I mean by through SEO.

6:04Himanshu Sahu: So this is how I think I got my initial projects and of course referrals referrals played a big game and specially specifically I think I am very lucky. I did some really good job in terms of making websites and helping teams. So those referrals were really really solid. And usually those referral leads are big and uh very very good logos. Oh

6:26Janne Parri: Yeah. Oh yeah. Totally. And you mentioned already the Amazon project. What was like the first enterprise client for you guys and how did you land that?

6:36Himanshu Sahu: So uh before Amazon actually we got uh earlier another big company it's called uh way ground. Earlier it was called called asquezies. So we had to do the entire rebranding for them. uh in terms of the migration. So it was an enterprise project. So I will say the first enterprise project was Vground and then eventually we uh got Amazon. So it was really different I will say this time because uh things were very serious people like because there were multiple stakeholders, there were multiple decision makers, multiple PC's.

7:08Himanshu Sahu: So this time I cannot miss the deadline, I cannot miss anything. Everything has to be communicated. The data has to be stored very I will say in a very secured manner. You cannot share anything. Everything has to be signed off first from the decision maker and then you will get to the main work. So I think things were very serious this time. But it's again very fun and and it's very motivating as well because you're getting paid very well. You know that this will bring you more clients as well and it will also boost your confidence. So I think the major the major part was boosting my confidence.

7:41Himanshu Sahu: I used to work with mid-size companies and then working with a big logo it boosted me and my entire team's confidence completely that we can also show this off.

7:51Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. Those those enterprise projects are so so interesting. I I do not have experience with those but I hear the same that you mentioned that the responsibilities and the liabilities are like on another level. you like have to deliver and if something goes wrong it's it's your ass that is on the line. But what about Flowtrix uh and your responsibilities? I know that when you grow your team and your company, your responsibilities usually change. So how much Webflow work do you get to do nowadays or do you just have to manage projects and people?

8:30Himanshu Sahu: I think uh very less. I think I rarely open Webflow only to fix some complex bugs. I I usually like to fix logical bugs if there is any custom code issue or if there is any uh integration I used to do I like I like to do that right now but if you ask me how much do I use Webflow for my client projects none and I also feel like I am my my knowledge is a bit outdated as well in terms of building because nowadays my developers are building using components they're using lumos plus Client-First plus m so many different style guides and we have like mixed all of them to create our own style guide and uh it's So so many cool stuff these guys are doing in my development team and nowadays I just go and just learn from them and if you ask my responsibilities in flows right now is primarily hiring and sales because this is something every founder will relate and you have to hire really really good talent.

9:22Himanshu Sahu: We have like a right now we have like a team of 15 people plus five to six uh extra contractors but we are trying to scale this team specifically in terms of design because I feel developers there is a good amount of connections I know I I can either hire them full-time or I can either subcontract them as well but in terms of designers I prefer to hire them full-time. I don't like hiring uh designers for contractual role because you know right how design projects are there are so many endless revisions. If I go if I go in the market uh and just hire a designer and uh if we end up having so many revisions bill will in the bill will be more than the client then then I'm willing to the clients.

10:02Himanshu Sahu: Uh this is the situation I actually faced the situation once that from from that on I am now hiring full-time designers. It's a very very hard job to hire good designers, good managers and also I'm trying to now finally scale my sales team because the entire sales is completely dependent on me. So I'm trying to build a playbook and trying to bring some sales folks so that they can start selling on behalf of me at least they can start doing the discovery calls and all. So that's what I'm trying to build right now a team and some sales calls.

10:34Janne Parri: Yeah, I have I have for long been theorizing. This is just theory for me because I do not have the experience. But uh I kind of see the same thing that development is quite easy to even outsource. But the design is hard because there's so much flexibility and opinions and so on. And if you want to get get to a good level on design, you really like have to practice. nowadays well there's AI and it might might be more useful for the for the developers don't you think

11:09Himanshu Sahu: Yeah I think uh in terms of design you cannot just pick any normal designer you have to pick a designer who has expertise on this particular domain who would understand how to do B2B design because we mostly do B2B design and sometimes u agency work or real estate work but mostly 99% of our work is B2B work and not every designer gets it so you have you need someone who has already worked in this domain and who understand conversion optimization who understand how to share the style guide with the developer.

11:41Himanshu Sahu: So dev handtop is also very important. So these few small small things you have to spot in a designer and then finally you can hire them or partner with them.

11:50Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. But hey let's talk about sales more because you you are doing the sales playbook and you are trying to build a sales team. What does your sales process look like right now? And uh maybe if you are if you have some goals for it, what do you want it to look like?

12:10Himanshu Sahu: Definitely. So I was a web developer. I have never done any MBA or I have never done any big course for sales. So for me it was like just going in the conversation and sharing my stuff and closing the deal. But uh from past few months I have changed that because now I'm trying to bring more high ticket clients and for high ticket clients or enterprise clients sales is just not one single call. It's like a full full playbook you have to follow at least you have to follow some steps which is very serious and uh initially when someone books a call for example through my website I will try to do a uh before the discovery call I will try to do research about the client.

12:46Himanshu Sahu: I have actually created an AI automation which will give me all the details about the client recent news if they are raising any firms and also what's the client company valuation how much revenue they're making and also about the person like I will also like to know whom I'm going to speak with right so these are the few steps I do before the call I just research about the company and the person I'm talking about second is that once we go on the discovery call in the discovery call I specifically don't try to sell too much. I try to hear I used to do do the reverse earlier but nowadays I have changed the strategy.

13:20Himanshu Sahu: I try to go in the call try to understand their pain points and I will try to find one or two pain points and then I will double down on that painoint and I will not try to distract with any other conversation and I will try to validate the pain point from the person and I will try to make him say the pain again and again again and again so that he eventually realizes that this is the pain and uh this is a very smart technique I'm using and honestly I'm I'm learning all of this through some books and some quick courses I subscribed to and once I I have I have like understood their pain point and their requirements very clearly in the discovery call I will try to schedule another meeting on that meeting I will try to pitch myself so for example today I'm taking a call I will try to schedule another meeting maybe on Thursday or Friday after 2 days and then on that call I will go prepared with all the pain points and uh on that call as well I will try to share my work share my entire process and then eventually I will try to share a a ballpark figure on how much this might cost you and sometimes there are deals which are very complex and specifically in enterprise so you have to co-author the deal with the uh person you are in contact for example in in our situation usually the marketing manager or the VP of marketing or the CMO these are the person who will be taking the decision right so I have to figure out my champion and then try to understand the deal with him and try to create the deal with him the the the more deep I will go inside their team and try to share my opinions and try to figure out the entire scope of work with them, the more the chances of the deal will close with us.

15:01Himanshu Sahu: So I think that's the strategy I have followed in in terms of high ticket clients and it is working very well. I'm still learning. I'll be honest with you. I still get a lot of rejections. But there are some deals which I have closed because of these techniques and it and uh I believe this is something if if I was a new developer in the market or if I was a new agency owner I will definitely share this tips with him that please please please research do a discovery call try to get him on another call try to co-author the deal with him try to create a entire scope of scope of work with the marketing manager or whoever whoever the champion is and then eventually share your prizes.

15:41Himanshu Sahu: Is so this way definitely you will succeed much better in terms of sales.

15:45Janne Parri: Yeah, I believe sales is one of those things that you are never ready. You will always be learning and so on. But how do you get the people on the first call? Like I know that you can book a call from your website but do you drive traffic to your website or do you have some active uh active tactics for that?

16:07Himanshu Sahu: Yeah. So, uh earlier I think last year was very good with Webflow experts. So we we were getting a lot of leads in from Webflow experts page I mean the partner page and uh it was really good like I was getting like every week five or six leads and I will most probably convert three or four leads every month at least but eventually the lead quality got decreased and I was like wondering what happened and eventually at this point I'm not getting any good leads from past 8 months even though I am the only design agency in India who has like the enterprise badge still I'm not getting good leads And I think it might be the reason because I got the B.

16:44Himanshu Sahu: I just I just don't know what is the reason because of that. But I realized this problem very early and then I started working on it and I started finding a solution for this. So what I did is that I doubled down on SEO. I created a lot of programmatic SEO pages. I created a lot of comparison pages. I updated the copy using the right keywords. I hired a marketing person and onboarded an SEO person as well who is writing my blogs. Because of this, initially I didn't saw any any growth but eventually I started getting some leads from the website and it started working for me and at this point every week we are getting some really really solid qualified leads from our website and not only from the website but from GPT as well.

17:24Himanshu Sahu: So I feel like I have somehow cracked the SEO formula in my industry at least in the Webflow industry and it's working very well for me. If anyone wants to know how I'm doing it please go and study my website. I know the copy is not the best but the structure the information architecture I have set up it's very good and you should definitely try to do that as well for your website you will definitely start getting some inbound leads and inbound leads are the best way to get leads because those leads have more chances to close at this point I have never done outbound I'm trying to figure out if and build a sales team to do outbound but as of till date now I it's been 5 years I have never done any outbound I have never gone and asked someone to do you do you need a website or not something like that.

18:07Himanshu Sahu: Although I'm not very proud of it but uh because inbound has been really grateful for me. I I'm I'm really grateful for inbound leads that's why uh I'm very busy with those projects but definitely uh outbound is something which I would like to do in future.

18:22Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. The outbound is a totally different game. And obviously it's great if you get those inbound leads and get to grow with those, but it would be nice to have some sort of like uh machine that when you put X amount of effort, you get Y amount of results. That would be that would be awesome. But one specific detail that I saw on your page relating to your SEO efforts was the the buttons that say that ask whichever LLM about Flowtrix and then it opens let's say ChatGPT or Perplexity or any any other LLM.

19:02Janne Parri: So have you found that those work and would you recommend people to do the same for their websites? M

19:10Himanshu Sahu: So uh actually I added that recently. I don't have too much data about that but uh what it does is that if someone clicks on that it will feed this information to GPT GP and the more people do it the more GPT will understand about my company the more GPT will crawl my website to understand about me. So I just want to increase the friction where people are trying to search Flowtrix in GPT or Claude. That's what that was the only purpose and uh I think it's working very well because uh if you search in GPT sometimes my name pops up like my company names pops out very well few of my leads are from GPT and claude as well so I think it's somehow working I know I I need to do much better on terms of AI optimization but uh this is so far the honest results about this

19:59Janne Parri: That's interesting and I might I might do the same for me the one thing that everybody is thinking is that will the AI represent your company in a somewhat truthful truthful manner meaning that will it get the facts right. So do you do you know or have you tested that open AR or JBT gives the right answers when someone asks about Flowtrix

20:25Himanshu Sahu: I think it is giving almost 99% accurate answers because there is a reason why it is giving those accurate answers because I'm optimized for it. I have I have used the same description in every blog I'm writing in every comparison page I'm writing and I have tried to repeat this same paragraph ever again and again and most importantly I have added this paragraph in my schema as well. So as you know schema markup we also have a app for that but uh this schema markup we have added all these descriptions and uh AI is crawling this text again and again and the more it crawls again and again the more it will made make the description the more description that this is the final description of this company and it will show up to the users in that way so so far it is giving correct and accurate answers

21:14Janne Parri: That is nice that is nice and I'm wondering do you offer this well SEO and uh AEO or AI optimization services to clients and what do you do if client client like uh buys one of those services.

21:29Himanshu Sahu: So initially I was very scared from the word SEO. I used to always like dedicate it to someone else but um from the last 8 to 9 months I have been doing SEO for myself for my own website and uh since it's working very well for me so I have figured out some strategies I have figured out all the glossery of words which this industry uses and uh since I'm also working with so many marketing managers and also SEO teams. So I have picked up all those insights and learnings and I have tried to do it for a few of my clients and it's working very well.

22:01Himanshu Sahu: So yes, we recently have added SEO MAU as a service and uh we are trying to do it for few clients. I know we don't have too many clients for whom we are doing it and we don't even represent as an SEO first agency but it is one of our services because I want to become a fullstack website agency so that everything gets covered into this.

22:22Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. I totally feel the feel the fear because the co AEO field is so like vague. You kind of feel like a some sort of sorcerer looking at a crystal ball and trying to figure out what what is going on and then you kind of have to sell the results to the client. And yeah, it's tough. It's tough. But obviously if you build the website, you are kind of the website guy and it relates to websites. So you kind of want to have the services there too.

22:55Janne Parri: Yeah, that's something

22:57Himanshu Sahu: Definitely. Are you are you like doing some SEO in your personal portfolio?

23:02Janne Parri: For myself, yeah, I have a history that my my site my like Finnish language site did very well a couple years back. It's probably doing quite well still. And uh because of that, I built my freelance business quite easily. I didn't have to do any active sales. I just wrote a couple of blog posts in Finnish and then I got to the first places of Google. Now I haven't done too much stuff on that side.

23:33Janne Parri: My English English side is under construction for some reason. The client work always gets first and it's been a long time coming. But I'm definitely thinking that I will do more content like more written content and optimized content regarding to the podcast and maybe some other stuff too. But there's so much so much to do like all the all the articles, all the transcripts, all the clips nowadays, short form content, video content, all the all the things.

24:06Janne Parri: So yeah, it's tough.

24:07Himanshu Sahu: Do you do you have the site in local like do you have a site in different localization?

24:11Janne Parri: Actually, I have two different domains. So, kind of two different different okay sites. But I'm thinking that I might change that so that it would be just one one domain or maybe even do some sort of like reverse proxy. Like it would be one Webflow project using localization, but it would use like two different total different domains with different endings. So, that might be an interesting thing.

24:39Himanshu Sahu: Definitely. I think we should do that. We should do that. We should keep one single domain and maybe you can just subscribe to Webflow localization or be load something like that to translate those content.

24:50Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. How about your site? Do do you have multiple language versions of flick site?

24:55Himanshu Sahu: No, I think uh we are currently in English and I think I'm not going to add any localization and like I don't have any plans to add any localization so far right now. So English will be our primary language for now.

25:08Janne Parri: Yeah. But I I believe that your clients do sometimes ask that. So you kind of do that for your clients.

25:16Himanshu Sahu: Yes, definitely. We have used actually we have used actually multiple tools. Sometimes Webflow localization, sometimes Webflow enterprise localization, sometimes we load and there is one more name I'm not remembering right now but also it is used for enterprise localization. So but definitely it's a bit challenging to do these things because the AI translation is so bad. So you have to write override all those transition with correct copy double check everything and sometimes clients also ask to change the images the graphics and text of the images has to be replaced and override as well.

25:53Himanshu Sahu: So it is a bit challenging but uh definitely uh something which helps you a lot in SEO. Oh, totally,

26:01Janne Parri: Totally. People who have experienced like the translation of a website know that there's a lot of things in theory, it's quite simple, but there's a lot of like uh edge cases that you might bump into. But what is your like favorite way to do that? Do you if you get to decide, do you always pick Webflow localization? Is that the best best for Webflow sites or what about the others?

26:25Himanshu Sahu: I always prefer to pick the Webflow one because it's much easier like you just have to um overwrite the components override the text and replace the images and even the URLs and all. So I think I I personally prefer the native localization compared to other third party but sometimes if the site is very large and I have just don't want to I just don't want to do the work I just tell them to like you can like if they have any internal tool just use that. So it just saves my time as well. So

26:57Janne Parri: But isn't there okay I do not do not know this from my experience but isn't there like integrations for those translation services or software that you can like bring kind of import or export and import the translations to Webflow localiz. Do you know anything about those?

27:17Himanshu Sahu: Yeah, we call it puff g file. So it's like a JSON file and uh you have to share it with their marketing team. they will fill those puffj files and all the content and then using the Webflow API you can import those as a localization as well. So I was not aware about this thing until we worked with Amazon team. They are about to do a global website and uh they are planning to add like multiple local and first of all I had to share the puffj file with them a template with them with the English content and uh their content team will review it.

27:50Himanshu Sahu: Their translation team will review it and then they will send me back the puffj file and I can bulk import it using Webflow API. So this is a very cool thing I got to learn recently and I will recommend other developers as well to use this technique.

28:06Janne Parri: Totally. Totally. And if I remember correctly, there's some new user roles so that you can like define like user rights for just specific local. So if you have a translator, he or she just has the access to that one specific local. So that's handy to

28:24Himanshu Sahu: I was not aware about this. I think I think you're talking about granular permissions, right? where you can granular overs where you can so I think it's on enterprise and maybe I have not explored this feature with any of my clients but cool to know that as well

28:37Janne Parri: All the features come first to enterprise but hopefully someday for us us more tools so to speak actually about the enterprise things we talked about sales but I wanted to ask you does like the Webflow team or Webflow salespersons ever aid you with the sales process are there with you on the call or anything like that?

29:00Himanshu Sahu: Yes, actually multiple times. So, their sales team is very collaborative and very helpful. They will assign you a so the moment you become an enterprise partner, they will assign you a partner manager and uh right now recently I have been assigned a Pacific region partner manager and he's very new. So you we go on a call with them we plan some stuff and whenever I submit an enterprise lead he will review it and he will assign a account I will say account manager or a sales SDR so I will be assigned that I will I will communicate with them we will co co-artner on this to make sure that the sale happens that we win the that we both win this deal and uh they will share you a deck they will share you every information you need and they will also share you the permission uh they will also share you all the features offers which we are going to upsell to the client.

29:51Himanshu Sahu: So very collaborative experience and so far u I have not closed many deals but uh the experience is very very great and I learned a lot from their team as well on how they try to prepare the proposal and how they partner with us to do this deal together. Just so I so to all the developers if you are getting an enterprise client definitely definitely apply it through the partner stack or reach out to any Webflow team who whoever is the closest or you know anyone and they will definitely connect you with the sales team and uh the deal will become even easier for you to close. Totally.

30:28Janne Parri: Totally. And have you seen the pricing changes and specifically the team plan the weird new new plan between like the normal plans and the enterprise plans. Do you have any opinions on that?

30:41Himanshu Sahu: I think already we got a lot of opinions on the internet. People are like bashing. I think I think this is because we are too emotional with reflow compared to any other tool. We are just very emotional with reflow because this is something which has given us the opportunity to work and make money. So people are very much obsessed with this platform and specifically developers who have been from very early. So definitely this pricing changes sometimes hurts. But we as a business owners or as a normal person we have to understand that every business has to make changes in their pricing.

31:16Himanshu Sahu: They also have to update their pricing. they also have to just like how we upgrade our rates definitely the other company will do the same as well right so this is like a you can call it inflation you can call it like the platform is maturing a lot and uh for every founder for every company the goal is enterprise let's be honest even for us as well I started from working with the small clients but eventually we want to work with the large companies the large logos and you cannot sell your product you cannot downsell your product such a strong product to to a big large enterprise company right and it will be not fair as well.

31:51Himanshu Sahu: You are selling the same product same thing to a small client to a small company and the same price the same product has been priced 10 tenets to a larger company. So I think this is not fair to any uh like the larger company right. So this is the reason why pricing is very hard and specifically with tool like Webflow where people are emotionally so much invested uh they use it daily 8 hours 10 hours and they have to sell they have to also sell Webflow to their clients. They have to convince their clients that yes it's worth paying for this add-on yet yes it's worth paying for this feature.

32:29Himanshu Sahu: So definitely uh I think this is something which we have we both have to understand uh as a developer and as an agency everyone has to understand this. But if I have to say one negative thing about this is that the bandwidth changes are a bit harsh. I think everything else is okay good but the bandwidth changes are a bit harsh. I will say I think Webflow should maybe rethink about the band bandwidth things because a lot of the platforms if you see the competitors they provide some generous bandwidth specifically the headless ones.

32:59Himanshu Sahu: So I think if you if you remember I I remember 2 years ago we were getting the on the business plan on the business plan we were getting the bandwidth around 400 GB and now we getting the on the same price around 50 GB or something like that. So it's a very very big I will say price increase in terms of bandwidth and you will easily exhaust 50 GB if you are a serious business owner or and and you're getting like really good traffic. So I think Webflow should really consider in terms of the bandwidth changes everything I mean people will eventually adjust. Yeah.

33:37Janne Parri: Yeah. I wonder if that is due to all the AI stuff and chips being pricey and so on. Maybe I do not know too much about no like the infrastructure

33:48Himanshu Sahu: It's not because of that bandwidth I think cloudfare provides bandwidth more bandwidth in a free plan compared to this one. So definitely I will say it's not because of that it's just that Webflow maybe wants to make some good money from sites who are doing well. So I mean it's fair it's it's it's fair. I mean they have built a platform after so long working they have a team but uh I also feel like uh it's a bit on on the harsher side. I think they can be a little jealous in terms of the bandwidth.

34:18Himanshu Sahu: That's the only feedback.

34:19Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. And I usually do not bump into the bandwidth for my most of my clients it is just like$1 or2 increase. So that is not too bad. That's just like as you said like inflation like Webflow is not not the worst when it comes to pricing. So that's that's still good. If you

34:40Himanshu Sahu: Go and see uh Adobe or Sanity or any other tool, they are like super expensive.

34:46Janne Parri: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On the enterprise level those alternatives are they they are super expensive. But what about uh what about Framer? I know that flows is a framer partner too. So what do you think is the main main differentiator and how do you decide which platform to ch uh choose for your client?

35:10Himanshu Sahu: So I think for me it's very obvious I can I can easily tell which project needs Webflow and which projects need Framer because in terms of Framer I have used the tool and we recently actually be uh become became a partner for them and we are also connected with their enterprise team as well. So how to pick a project right in terms of you have to use Webflow or Framer. So whenever a project is more than 10 or 15 pages and it has like a templatic uh style and also you're going to you like you're going the client is going to do invest in a lot of SEO work and content work and uh the site has little less animation as well like very mild animations just like how B2B sites have so just go with Webflow it's very easy to use scale you can have a lot of pages you can use reuse components and SEO is really really good in Webflow compared to framer because framer initially started as a prototype builder and then eventually they evolved as a web builder and then now they are competing with Figma as well.

36:13Himanshu Sahu: So I feel like framer if you have a small site, relatively small site and it has a lot of animations, lot of detailing and experience sometimes you you make sites which showcase experiences. So definitely I feel for that kind of projects go with framer because you will get a lot of creative freedom. You will be able to animate the the whole animation thing is much easier in framer compared to flow. I have tried both and I realized that Framer is much easier for designers also and developers as well to create animations.

36:46Himanshu Sahu: So smaller sites with good animations go with Framer. Larger sites, complex sites, B2B sites, lots of integration, SEO, just Webflow is a no-brainer for this situation as of now in this market.

36:59Janne Parri: Yeah, I didn't know that framer has a enterprise team in hindsight. Yeah, of course they have. But how does how how does framer like work for enterprises? Uh

37:10Himanshu Sahu: I actually I have not worked too much of enterprise uh in terms of Framer. They actually reached out to me as an agency program and they gave me like the the free Framer account. So I am a free Framer account. I can make as many sites as want for personal and uh but for personal use and if I'm using for clients uh definitely they will have to pay. And uh in this program the main goal was to transition from uh definitely other tools like Webflow and other tools like headless CMS and move all of my clients to uh Framer.

37:43Himanshu Sahu: I got a enterprise lead uh I was about to close the project but uh eventually they backed out and they decided to do it inhouse. So that's the whole story for a Framer project. But I apart from that I have done some small projects and in terms of enterprise clients they have some really good enterprise clients. They have like Perplexity, Tesla, those are all in framer. If you go and check their enterprise page, they have like a lot of uh enterprise clients and framer is actually pretty much expensive compared to Webflow. So in terms of [clears throat] in terms of band bandwidths, uh if you if you compare the pricing plans right and if you go in in detail, you will realize is even less generous in terms of bandwidth compared to a Webflow. So, so it's also one of the thing you have to be inconsiderate. So, what we do is that we host our videos and images in a different CDN when we do projects in Framer so that we don't end up hitting them bandwidth limit.

38:39Janne Parri: Okay. Okay. I I have to ask everybody in the audience will hate me if I do not ask which platform or host you use for the videos.

38:48Himanshu Sahu: I personally using a FlowDrive. It's built by the famous manual in the industry. He's very famous in the Webflow industry and uh he actually gave me a big big uh discount when I was like his first 100 customers and he gave me an unlimited plan. So

39:06Janne Parri: That's nice with

39:07Himanshu Sahu: A one time pricing. So I'm just using that as of now. But if you want to use alternatives, I will suggest BunnyCDN. It's very cheap, very very cheap. I have I'm using it for a couple of my clients who don't want the files to be hosted for inside my FlowDrive. So for them uh we are using BunnyCDN. It's very very cheap.

39:26Janne Parri: Nice. Nice. Okay. How about we move on to the to the topic of AI? The topic that we always have to ask or talk about on every episode in this show and it feels like on every other show too. This wasn't supposed to be an AI podcast, but I kind of have to have to visit the topic. or how do you see AI and do you think that it will disrupt the agency business or your business or our business?

39:53Himanshu Sahu: I mean uh if you open Twitter Twitter you will already feel that you are dead. this Twitter Twitter post there just keeps claiming that agency is dead, designers are dead, developers are dead but here we are still alive surviving and I think this is how we will continue to we will evolve we will try to use those tools and eventually make our work much faster. So earlier we it was taking like if a if a website will take around 4 months or 3 months now it's taking like 2 months or 1.5 months relatively the work timing is getting less and yes the price might be cheaper but you're also getting it getting the money very fast compared to waiting 4 months phase by phase work you're doing face by phase work and then you're getting those invoices so late.

40:38Himanshu Sahu: Now you can speed up the work. You will you will be able to ship a website much much faster and uh you can still charge the same or even if you charge less you will be able to do more projects in every every single month. So from sales perspective it's definitely helpful and if you ask me from creative perspective yes we are using a lot of tools to create videos stock images. I think we recently used for a client called chatlabs.com like the images are so so good like every image is like in 4K quality and it just enhances the website look so definitely we are using AI for design and all those uh imagery all those proto proto I think I think Figma make has been really helpful as well to create those first prototypes and I also remember those graphics right the SAS since we do a lot of B2B SAS projects so those graphics were very hard to pull off and sometimes we have to like manually design it.

41:30Himanshu Sahu: Spend so much time in designing those micro graphics. Now I can just take a screenshot, put it in Figma make, it will design a full graphic for me in Figma and it will give me a Figma file as well. I can copy and paste and I can edit it as well. So it's just so easy. So my designers are using this techniques. My designers are actually building internal tools to create a few shader elements to create few uh how do I say this few background images with graphs and all. So it's very cool and in terms of development I feel like Webflow is the bottleneck. I have like some opinions on this.

42:02Himanshu Sahu: So I have tried multiple tools to develop a website. We have used Figma MCP and it's so fast right when you build a site from cursor or Claude it's just super fast. You get the code you can host it anywhere. But in terms of Webflow right now I have tried the MCP but you usually end up uh exhausting all those credits and it's still not up to the mark. So I think here is a very controversial take. I feel like this might become a bottleneck if Webflow will not work on it. I assume they are working on it. I don't know how they will do it.

42:34Himanshu Sahu: But Figma to Webflow transition or Figma to a website transition is much easier in an cursor or claw in custom code compared to Webflow. I can do it in one single day. I mean in 30 minutes I can go and just paste the Figma MCP URL and I can optimize the site. But but if you're doing it for Webflow, you have to first build the component structure, entire page and then of course there are some advantages in Webflow because you can scale it very fast. But I still feel uh this is becoming a bottleneck and uh this is the reason why I'm building on headless CMS internally.

43:07Himanshu Sahu: So this is like a product I'm building internally so that my designers can work on the creative part, they can do the design, they can give a Figma handoff as well. But when it comes to development, there are few clients who doesn't have a preference. They don't like to prefer anything like they don't want to be in Webflow or they don't have any opinion about any development tool. In those situation, I can I can use this tool. I can use my my own internal CMS. I I'm trying to build an headless CMS where you can deploy the code and it will give you a very simple editorial view and you can edit all the content.

43:41Himanshu Sahu: The reason because all the headless CMS which we have in the market right now let's say sanity payload or strappy etc etc all of them are developer focused none of them are marketer focused there is one maybe one like Storyblok but it's still very bad UI UX I will say so I want to build a very simple simple CMS just to edit content create blog create case studies change some logos change some copy this is my simple goal Because I have realized after working so long that yes we use Webflow so that the client can take the ownership but the client will never take the ownership.

44:19Himanshu Sahu: If he touches the file then he touches the file it will get corrupted. So it is always developer dependent only and specifically in enterprise sites no way a marketer is going to open the designer mode and try to create a page. He or she doesn't have a type to do that. he will either hire an in-house developer or either he will just partner with a retainers Webflow retainer. So I have realized this thing that Webflow is not making or helping here anyway. We we are already Webflow developer dependent. So the only thing which client takes ownership is content.

44:52Himanshu Sahu: They will change the copy, they will write blog, they will write case studies or they will sometimes maybe change logos or they will add some team members. That's it. So basically the CMS stuff. So this is the reason why I'm trying to build a CMS so that they don't have to do any vendor lock into Webflow or any other tool. And it's not like I'm leaving Webflow. Of course, I love this platform. And uh I'm not trying to compete with them directly. It's just that there are some clients and sometimes you don't honestly need Webflow or Framer. We just need a basic CMS.

45:23Himanshu Sahu: But the client can edit stuff and stuff like that. So I'm trying to build this tool. It is called as better CMS. Better CMS. Uh I will be launching it maybe by next in the next two months or in the next one month. And it's it will it will be in a closed beta. I will try to with a bunch of few developers. You are also welcome. Please use that. And uh yeah and uh it will be very easy to use. I'm trying to build it fully fully MCP optimized. So you can just you open Claude. You can create page.

45:54Himanshu Sahu: You can deploy it. You can edit content. I don't want to add anything like manual like too much of manual work. Although I will still give the manual work option because I don't want you to spend so much of credits for basic stuff. But uh but definitely this is the vision. I'm trying to build a tool for uh my own clients and then I will try it with all my some of some of my developer brand community and uh if it works out really well then I might actually make it a public app eventually. It's a long journey u I'm just trying to check because I have I like I have a very habit of building few small small apps.

46:27Himanshu Sahu: If you see also build a app called flutric schema app and it was a free app with the community uh I I think more than 5,000 sites have installed that app. I was like wow and uh it was a free app but eventually flow released the native feature. I I felt like I am a visionary. I I built a feature which is coming so much in use today in terms of AI. Everyone everyone is now adding schema. Everyone is obsessed with FAQ schema etc etc. And now it's like a mainstream word in the buzz word in terms of AEO AO and SEO.

46:59Himanshu Sahu: So I feel like 2 years ago I built this application and now it's coming very handy for a lot of people.

47:05Janne Parri: Yeah. Okay. There was a lot of a lot of stuff there. So firstly some comments. Webflow MCP not great yet. Hopefully in the future it will be the CMS is powerful like Webflow CMS is powerful and the build mode it is also powerful but they as you said they I'm with you like they are not like marketer friendly so there is a total use case for for your CMS solution but if there is if there are people who are not familiar or do not have experience with headless CMS how do you like integrate that to Webflow does it does it always go through a Webflow app and do you have some sort of interface for it on on some browser app or yeah how do you do that?

47:53Himanshu Sahu: So u um basically we will completely remove the need for any other CMS tool. You just need pigma file and then u you can either hire a developer any any CMS developer he will know this or uh I'm planning to build a migrator tool as well where you just paste your link it will take your entire website code and convert it to astro I'm preferring I think I will be using astro and nexjs for the uh headless sites and uh once that is done the tool will automatically configure everything for you and we will just give you the chat option you can just chat You can edit stuff, you can draw some stuff and then edit as well just like you see in plot.

48:32Himanshu Sahu: And again uh the question where you are asking that how I am going to make it more marketer friendly is because it's it's mostly because of the UIUX play. I think it will be a big UIUX play. I will have to make it very less scary compared to what other platforms are. And uh nowadays people are already using Claude so much. So I feel like uh you can just install the app which I'm going to build for Claude or you can just use the SDK or CLI and uh you can just prompt it just prompt everything and it will keep doing all those changes. It will create it will create all the schema CMS all the databases which will be required.

49:08Himanshu Sahu: I honestly don't have full 100% clarity on how exactly it will come out because I'm still in the building phase of the NVP. But I have a very genuine feeling that I'm going to make it very very easy to use so that any marketer can use it. And again I feel like I will not claim that it is again a developer free website because I feel like there will be always a developer. We are not losing out our jobs. Marketers have a lot of task to do that managing the website. So definitely no no scarcity of jobs in terms of handling website or anything.

49:42Himanshu Sahu: There will be definitely a full-time uh developer or there will be a part-time developer or a contractor at least for the development of the site. So he or she will develop the site and uh for the editing and content definitely we will do the UIUX for it and make it much much more simpler than what Webflow is right now. I feel u at this point Webflow is a bit more like I will say like they're adding so many so many of the features even in the marketer mode I feel it might feel a bit overwhelming for a simple site definitely definitely I'm not aiming right now for enterprise sites enterprise sites I will still use Webflow but for the smaller sites I will right now try to use my internal CMS test it out with them and then eventually if things go goes very right and we find our market fit I will definitely try to go the same enterprise route as well.

50:35Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. And what is your like build build process for that CMS? Uh how how long are you with that and do you have any help or are you just alone like developing that on your spare time evenings and weekends? So how do you how do you find the time to build that?

50:55Himanshu Sahu: Honestly, this idea came 1.5 months ago. Not very like it's not long. So 1.5 months ago I was like trying to I was just just pissed off and I'm just not able to do few stuff uh which I wanted to do through Webflow. So I randomly went to Claude Code and just by coded the entire thing entire thing and luckily I had the domain name as well. I don't know why I took I took this domain name. I always had the idea to build a notion like CMS but this idea was to integrate it with Webflow so that people can easily get a simpler editor like notion and edit and add their blogs.

51:30Himanshu Sahu: It will be synced with Webflow or framer. I was planning to build a plug-in but eventually now since Claude Code is so powerful it let me build the entire thing for me. So I built this idea and then I and then luckily I have some really good developer friends and the community and since I also have like internal developer development team as well. So I pick one developer from there and one developer from my friend community and we are like building we are building this tool and eventually once the MVP is out I will definitely share or maybe we can do another podcast regarding that and I will I will love to explain how to how to use this for your future future sites.

52:05Himanshu Sahu: I feel like I'm trying to build for the future sides and definitely future will be more of agents, more of agents, more of AI and we have to give that freedom and flexibility and uh the reason why Webflow is not able to do it so fast because flow has built so long years ago and all the traditional code all the technical debt they are trying to they're trying to all they're trying to like update all those codes as far as what I have seen. So it will take a bit of time and and a lot of testing for for a company like Webflow whereas for me I'm starting from whereas for me I'm starting from today right so today I have like all the modern technologies I know what to do what not to do although a lot of learnings definitely I will indeed a lot of learnings I will learn in the path as well but I still feel some really really good third party text has come in the market and we are trying to utilize them to get our job done let's see what happens I'm not sure this idea might completely flop as well.

53:04Himanshu Sahu: But uh I just want to take a bet. I love enjoying I I love FLIX. I love building sites for companies as a uh but I feel like if you can own the website as well like in terms of development and the entire vendor. So I think it will give me a bigger bigger grip with the client that I am building the site, I'm designing the site and I'm owning the site as well. So definitely it's going to give me it's going to help me a lot but also it sounds very scary. What if the site is down and uh the client is like why so scary?

53:37Himanshu Sahu: There's a very scary thing as well because this is like not this is not like a normal product it's like a website. Imagine a site goes down and so much of comments we get to see in Twitter and so much of backlash we to we get to see in Twitter about Webflow or cloudfare and the same happens with me. I I am actually a bit scared about this but I'm also very confident that I that's that's the reason why I'm trying to spend a lot of time in the infrastructure and the back end so that we don't end up uh we don't have end up just the same like how sometimes happens with Webflow, Framer, they go down.

54:10Himanshu Sahu: Oh yeah although it's not in your full fully in your hands but again it can happen to anyone. Yeah.

54:17Janne Parri: Yeah, totally. And I'm always feeling bad for I know that there is a guy who is tirelessly trying to fix everything. I always feel bad for that. But yeah, the case of like static sites. I know that people are building static sites with Claude and having some success with that. And I have had some guests on the show that that are thinking that that might be a good alternative to Webflow. And it's an interesting case.

54:48Janne Parri: Obviously, Webflow has some features and things going for it. Have been building the site and the app for so long. So that that counts for something and they have the control and you do not have to be a developer. Although as we talked Webflow itself is not too marketer friendly. So it's kind of in the same realm. But do you think that there's a possibility that all the AI AI stuff will get so good that everybody is just like doing static sites with AI?

55:21Himanshu Sahu: No, I feel like if you go to the enterprise route, once a developer starts developing for enterprise route, they will realize that no, you cannot replace these CMSs at least as of now because there is so much of things happening behind a large enterprise migration. There are so many stakeholders you have to take so much of testing. I I cannot imagine like with Amazon right I had to like we can like we have to self host the site for few clients we have to use custom hosting we have to build the front end in Webflow, share the code sometimes you have to use a different app third party app and also there are so many API integrations and all so I feel like in this kind of situation where you are doing a very large website migration and a very serious one definitely Adobe or Webflow this they will still remain the most preferred partner uh specifically because of the trust they have gained in the industry and even WordPress uh WordPress also has like uh I think uh WP engine enterprise so a lot of clients use that as well so I think they cannot move to simple static sites just like a how a small startup can do do that so definitely no I don't I don't see that happening for larger companies but for smaller companies and mid-size companies definitely yes they are going to wipe out code their entire website they are going to […] the website as well.

56:43Himanshu Sahu: They're going to learn a lot of things about AI and then eventually they will um eventually they are going with a much smoother platform like sananity Webflow. So I think I think it's a I think it's very fun even with my website I I I really want to like wipe food and do some crazy […] but since I'm already getting some really good SEO benefits I am not able to do that. I don't want to uh I don't want to ruin anything. Whatever is going is going very well. So I don't want to ruin anything.

57:12Janne Parri: Yeah, I feel that people are right now going with the vibe coded site just like because of the speed of building it's so fast to whip up a site. But if Webflow could like uh address that issue like somehow somehow solve that with the MCP or something else so that it would be at least somewhat as fast to build a site with Webflow as in with those web coding tools that would like be a huge win for Webflow wouldn't you say? Sir

57:44Himanshu Sahu: Yeah I think would definitely if you can and I I think they will do it they will definitely try to match what are the current requirements for people because as you have seen right they are slow I will say they are slow and there are many reasons for that because they are now a large company but they will definitely fight back and try to build all those cool features I am I'm actually a part of like beta beta group and I just keep seeing all those cool stuff happening inside flow labs team and I I feel I cannot speak too much about it.

58:17Himanshu Sahu: I've signed an NDF for this but I am very very optimistic about these things like they are going to definitely build some really cool stuff. They are going to add all those features which people are demanding but one thing I'm not sure about is about the bandwidth and pricing. I think this is something it's not going to come down. It is only going to go up. you are only going to spend a lot of money in AI credits and all and you cannot expect now from a company like Webflow they will come down and give you everything for very much less less money. So this is the only only only thing that you have to spend a bit more com whereas if you try to build it from your own in cursel you will you will end up saving a good good amount of money.

58:56Janne Parri: Yeah. Oh yeah, there was this AI credit thing for Webflow with the pricing increase. Now there's some Webflow AI credits in the works place workplace plans if I remember correctly. I haven't seen seen yet on my workspace but I guess they are somewhere there and you might have might end up buying more of those at some point. Yeah,

59:20Himanshu Sahu: They have actually added the uh Webflow AI credits thing. I yesterday I was like opening the dashboard and I saw something like usage. I clicked on it and then I saw so there is there is where they have added it all the AI now now we have to be accountable for all the AI criticism we are spending fun fact is that I have I have barely used AI barely used flow AI to build stuff I mean why why will I use that most of my work is getting done through Claude and also very I have used barely the internal Webflow API AI but I know there might be some people who who are like playing around with their CMS trying to build some cool calculator some cool tools tools.

59:58Himanshu Sahu: So maybe maybe there

59:59Janne Parri: Yeah there are not too many like features. Well there's the AI components the app gen I believe that's still in beta. Well the schema shima and meta description generation stuff. I do not know if those take take out the credits but there's not too many things. So this might be an indicator that something bigger is coming. I'm hopeful. I guess that Webflow kind of has to do something something bigger with AI.

1:00:31Himanshu Sahu: Yeah, I think they might do the Lovable kind of thing. I mean, they will try to build something like Lovable. That's my guess.

1:00:38Janne Parri: Yeah, Lovable is interesting because people are like doing websites with Lovable, but it's obviously better for like apps like web apps and such. It might be in my head, but I feel that people kind of mix those use cases. Like those maybe should still be in separate like uh environments or apps. Like if you if you have have a app builder that should be good for building apps, but if you have a website builder that should be good for building HTML and CSS and so on.

1:01:09Janne Parri: So yeah, I didn't know what what it

1:01:13Himanshu Sahu: Yeah, I think it's very very interesting. they they're trying to give all the things which are required to build an app as well. So they they're trying to merge both both the website and the app thing which I think webl is struggling to do that because liable didn't have all the infrastructure whereas Webflow has all the those lay laid out very well over the years. So they just need to add all those features on top of that. So I think Webflow has a big advantage. Other advantage is that you can host the same app in the same domain as well.

1:01:45Himanshu Sahu: So it's also the ease of hosting those apps in the same domain. There are few advantages definitely but again it will come up to the cost. If you host it in your cloudare it will be cheaper. If you host it in Webflow it is going to create a huge amount of it might if if you are getting a lot of traffic it might create a big bean big bean in terms of bandwidth charges.

1:02:06Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. But then again it might be peanuts to the company if it's a big enough company and if there is some other other like stuff that you are doing with the with Webflow it helps you in some other way that could be a reasonable cost but okay I still want still want to ask you about um about Flowtrix and how are you preparing for the future with Flowtrix? Are you developing anything else than the CMS thing regarding to the AI stuff?

1:02:41Janne Parri: Are you like thinking of adding services or doing something else for the future?

1:02:47Himanshu Sahu: No man honestly I'm trying to double down on things which we are really good at which is design. I think we are really good at design creativity and as a team we are a very fun team. We are very young like all of all of us are like Z and like we are very chill. So if you see the c corporate culture in India and then the culture we have in our company it's very very different. We try to operate as a global company and fully remote team. So um the only thing we are investing is that we are trying to reduce the amount of time which we are spending for a task.

1:03:21Himanshu Sahu: So we're trying to optimize that uh a lot in certain areas. for example, migration, link writing or uh SEO or you can say in terms of design, I already mentioned that I'm trying to my my designers are trying to build some quick tools to generate images, cool graphics so that they they don't have to manually do do that. So I think in this situation we are optimizing a lot trying to save a lot of time and uh trying to reduce the launch time. So if your project will take 3 months, I'm trying to make it 2 months at least.

1:03:53Himanshu Sahu: And hopefully after my CMS is done, I will be able to reduce a lot of time because I know Webflow development takes a lot of time. Currently, you have to spend a good amount of time. Whereas if you are doing it like a custom code, you get a lot of time to like you don't spend too much time in the translation from design to development. You spend too much time on integrations and the optimizations and here and there. So right now Webflow is becoming the bottleneck for us to design and then develop them manually. this is the only problem that I'm trying to solve. So, so yeah, this is this is my honest answer.

1:04:23Janne Parri: Yeah, hopefully Webflow solves that. And uh the good thing of doing doing stuff faster is also that you can like increase the quality of the project also if you do the basic stuff faster. That's cool too like more more options for that. But you mentioned uh the business culture. I believe most of the listeners are not familiar with the business culture in India. How do you see that? And uh what about like Webflow culture in India? How do you see those?

1:04:55Himanshu Sahu: In terms of India, I think we have a lot of Webflow developers. I mean when I was starting my journey in entire website development and freelancing, there were like very limited number of developers and we all know all knew somehow each other. But now I think almost we have I think the very big amount of developers are coming from India and it's not uh it's like it's not that difficult to learn the learning curve has also decreased people have also like good courses nowadays uh in terms of developers we have a good community here although uh we don't do too much of events I am from Bangalore right now and in Bangalore we have like a very limited number of events and specifically in terms of Webflow I will say we we used to have those events but nowadays like um negligible I'll say like like none but in terms of uh Gujarat there is another state in India Gujarat uh they have like a good decent community and they are organizing some really good events so one of my teammate from my Flowtrix team represented uh recently on that event and they are hosting it on the Webflow community website as well so it's like an official meetup and they are getting maybe some sponsorship from as well to host this events which is really great I I think I think I think uh compared to Figma designers or Framer designers Webflow community is a bit smaller and it's a very niche in the industry specifically in India as well.

1:06:19Himanshu Sahu: I I think we all should like talk together, share tips and uh form a community because it because life is like very very short. Why not just uh in uh share all those learnings, have fun. So I think uh yeah uh this is something which uh we have to work more on in terms of community events. I will try to see if I can organize few community events this year. Specifically we do one community event on the PFL conference day like we try to do a watch party.

1:06:51Himanshu Sahu: We try to do a watch party. For the last two years I have been going to walk by flow conference directly like flying to America but uh but here in this Bangalore city and even in from Gujarat like in cities from Gujarat they organize this events and I think it's very very fun. I have been part of one and it was really really nice and we were like applausing like wow gap gap is acquired by Webflow those times those times so preai I would say preai times where where it was very hard to do gap animations and all so at those moments they were they were really really fun so I I miss those moments a lot nowadays it's like I feel like the the culture is somehow dying people are migrating to different CMS Framer custom code.

1:07:37Himanshu Sahu: So and Webflow is becoming like a very serious set of develop like for for a very serious set of developers only enterprise or only serious businesses are trying to use Webflow and I think this is why we are turning a bit boring we are not sharing too much of work people and whereas compared to other communities like designers they keep sharing some cool stuff they design in chat GP or stuff but meflow Webflow folks are like just boring like just share share the site once it's done so I think we have to work as a community.

1:08:09Himanshu Sahu: We have to make it fun. And moreover, our message to We feel like We has also decreased a lot of amount of stuff they were investing in terms of community. Now we don't see those videos. We don't see those fun tutorials. We don't see those live streams. I think the engagement has decreased a lot in terms of this community and from Webflow as well. I feel like Webflow should lead this. Earlier it was very fun. Earlier we used to do some really really cool stuff. Nowadays it's like all boring stuff. all the AI rubbish stuff we are just keep we just like keep seeing again and again again and again.

1:08:42Himanshu Sahu: So somehow I feel like this is an area where we all have to come together and try to share more stuff more cooler stuff. So yeah these are my thoughts that is

1:08:51Janne Parri: That is so true. I'm with you on the same boat with all of those. Obviously there's like a lot of um variables in this. There's all this hype around AI like the attention goes there. The Webflow as a platform is more like serious, more complex. It's not the cool new tool that designers can just whip up a site. It's more towards the enterprise clients and so on. And as you mentioned, there has been changes within Webflow.

1:09:24Janne Parri: I kind of feel that they are trying to they know this and they are trying to fix it because they revamped the global leaders program. They have funding for those meetups and other stuff and there's the new community platform. But at the end of the day, I believe it's more about like us the community members. If we do not do do cool stuff and if we do not like uh post about the cool stuff, it's just going to go downhill from here.

1:09:56Janne Parri: We do really have the responsibility to do some

1:09:59Himanshu Sahu: Yeah, I think we all have to together come together and uh again make this community but although I don't have too much hopes but I still have few hopes. So let's see what happens and I think that's maybe the lifeline of a product and it's been a long while where we are working with Webflow and there are very few companies who have who have like made this work for example Shopify and Figma they have still really really loyal loyal users if you see Figma I know there is something a tool called paper which is out which is also very cool but but I feel still people will not be able to get out from Figma because they keep doing cool stuff they keep adding those uh AI features.

1:10:40Himanshu Sahu: They keep trying to add those features very very fast compared to any other enterprise tool in the market. So kudos to them.

1:10:47Janne Parri: Yeah, that is that is actually true. I haven't thought about it but there are a lot of like small and big features that have come out from Figma and there's more like excitement about that. Obviously like the Figma sites is not not a great tool for us but it is still exciting. I remember when it was launched and so on. So but they have they are doing something right

1:11:12Himanshu Sahu: But they have but they have acquired uh payload they have acquired payload and uh payload CMS. So I so they will be launching their CMS which is very interesting to see like how they are going to launch a CMS inside Figma this year. So it's like a lot of CMSs to play around and test including mine. So let's see let's see how it goes. Personally, I think like it will be a good feature to add on, but no one is going to maintain their website in Figma. I just have a feeling that I will not personally like to maintain my marketing website in Figma.

1:11:46Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I wonder how Figma will like uh how how it will like perform in the future. As you mentioned the paper and I believe there's some some other design tools that are kind of more like development ready or if I understand correctly, they are

1:12:05Himanshu Sahu: Framer is coming with their own design.

1:12:08Janne Parri: Yeah. And if there could be a a design tool that kind of like produces a development ready code or components, that would be obviously a big big change. And that might be so big change that people uh would be willing to try out some new tool. And I wonder if Figma is planning to do something something like that or aware of this possible future. But yeah, that is a crystal ball. the ball thing like trying to predict the future.

1:12:41Janne Parri: [gasps] Okay. Okay. Himmanu, at some point I have to let you go. Uh but do you have any anything to add about Flowtrix, Webflow, AI, the CMS stuff for the listeners?

1:12:54Himanshu Sahu: I think personally I have a message to all the developers. All the developers listening to this, I assume that you will have a Webflow audience. So my message will be that please please please start learning custom code. Try to learn how to use cursor, how to use clot and just don't be dependent on one single tool and try to add all those skill sets which the way where you can make a site without Webflow for example you can use Astro you can use Next.js you can use Atlas CMS no matter what CMS you choose but please try to learn these skills because you never know the future and as we are evolving I personally feel like the market will shrink up a lot and the need for a Webflow developer might be little less and the need for a developer who is full stack might increase a lot who knows custom code who knows animation who can handle any […] you give him and he can do that.

1:13:49Himanshu Sahu: So full stack developer will we will see a big rise of demand compared to just a Webflow developer. So this is the message I will share with all my ref friends because I have been into this and I have started my own company eventually. I'm very lucky in this few few stages but I I know that there are some people who might feel the injustice because they are starting it right now in a very difficult state of world. So this is the only message I will give them. Please please please upskill yourself with all those extra extra extra extra elements you can learn.

1:14:19Janne Parri: Beautiful. Beautiful. That's a great closing thought. And if there's people who want to follow you, message you or contact you, where should they go?

1:14:27Himanshu Sahu: I think LinkedIn is the best place. I am active on LinkedIn. I am active on Twitter as well. So LinkedIn and Twitter, you can please DM me. And if you are looking for a website partner, if you're looking to partner, so definitely you can just go to flick.co. This is the website. And yeah, that's it.

1:14:43Janne Parri: Yeah, and I will obviously put all the relevant links in the description. But there's one last thing. One last thing for the dedicated listeners. So, this is a weird last section I have on the show. Do you have any idea what it could be about?

1:14:58Himanshu Sahu: I don't know honestly.

1:15:00Janne Parri: Yeah, this is this is a weird Finnish thing. I will explain. But this is beautiful because this comes comes as a surprise. So, what follows is that I will give you a Finnish saying and I will translate that to English and your job is to guess what it means. Simple as that. Is that clear?

1:15:20Himanshu Sahu: Okay. Uh it sounds very interesting, but let's see.

1:15:24Janne Parri: Yeah. Okay. I got to say this this might be a tough one. So in Finnish the saying is carvalakimal. And in English it basically means fur hat model. So like a very very warm hat model. And it would be used in a sentence like okay this website is a very fur hat model. So what does that mean? What kind of website would that be?

1:15:51Himanshu Sahu: Okay. So you mean fur is like like the normal fur which we have and then fur hats hat is actual hat.

1:15:58Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. Fur hats in Finland we have like very cold winter. So we have those very furry very very warm hats. So that kind of hat and model combined to that.

1:16:09Himanshu Sahu: Okay. model like you mean the actual like a model 3D model kind of thing or like

1:16:15Janne Parri: It's like a car model or

1:16:17Himanshu Sahu: Okay, got it.

1:16:18Janne Parri: Laptop model or some kind of model. Got

1:16:21Himanshu Sahu: It. Is this mean like something very very heavy and like something like very heavy?

1:16:27Janne Parri: That's a good guess. Good guess. But that's not right. Do you want to have a another another try?

1:16:33Himanshu Sahu: Okay, give me one more chance. One second. So what type model, right? So it might be Can you give me one more example English example? This example was not that great or helpful at all.

1:16:46Janne Parri: Yeah. Uh maybe the maybe the like uh most popular example would be a car like my car is a fur hat model.

1:16:56Himanshu Sahu: Okay. So it can be like the most uh heaviest and most trendy and coolest and the most famous one I guess in the so the website will be like the most trendy one something like this like

1:17:09Janne Parri: That's that's another beautiful guess but it's it's actually the opposite of that like yeah it's it's like the most basic model you can get like no bells and whistles like just the bare minimum for the car for the website for the laptop top or whatever. I do not know what's the logic behind that. There's weird logic with this saying. I

1:17:34Himanshu Sahu: Had a feeling like it's like most sizzling red hot car. Most sizzling red hot feeling. But it came out to be the completely opposite. But great. I learned something today.

1:17:44Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. You can you can go and say that to your co-workers. See all the puzzled faces. Yeah. That's one one thing that I'll just have to do. But okay. Himanshu, thanks so much for being a guest. And for all the listeners and watchers, we'll see you in the next one. Bye.