Designers Need ToBuild Parallel Skills

0:00Punit Chawla: I call them parallel skills and I think it's a sort of a must in today's time because we're expected to be multidisciplinary in a lot of ways especially the designers are starting now they're all so worried about not knowing a tool but I'm like every tool now looks like Figma what are you worried about and then Figma sort of called me out they're like dude what's going on.

0:30Janne Parri: Okay, Punit. So, are there still room for designers who do just one thing? The alternative, of course, being like adding coding or teaching or content creation to the mix. What do you think?

0:45Punit Chawla: Yeah, I think there's a lot more to do. I think a lot a lot of designers kind of become very one unidirectional with what they're doing because it's their career and they forget like why they started. I mean you'll understand this because you've been a freelancer for so long that you just got to do a bunch of things. If a client asks for something you won't really say no straight up sometimes. So I think that is something that a lot of designers who've been in the job for so long have are missing out on.

1:15Punit Chawla: Even people getting started, they think, okay, we just learn, let's just say user experience design or web design or whatever it might be, but then they don't cover anything linked to it. So for if you're a web designer, if you know things like WebGL or Three.js, you know, things like that, just to kind of enhance what you already make or already know, it's really going to add a lot of value to your projects. It's going to add a lot of value to when you're trying to pitch to say a client.

1:45Punit Chawla: It's it's going to add a lot of value to like even your job. So I think I call them parallel skills. If you're a web designer, you learn 3D. If you're a UI designer, you might want to learn motion, you know. So I call them parallel skills. And I think it's a sort of a must in today's time because we were expected to be multidisciplinary in a lot of ways. In the AI era, we're supposed to be able to do like three different things, perform three different responsibilities we never expected. So adding adding to those skills, I would say just learn like at least one solid parallel skill and that might get you a lot of like extra credit when it comes to, you know, working with clients or even at your workplace.

2:32Punit Chawla: You probably be ahead of like your team or other designers in like a competitive space. So I think yeah, parallel skills for sure. I developed them early on and I really enjoyed developing them. I think everyone should get on it and sort of see what other skills sort of link to what they're already doing so as to say and you know then go from there. I think that's that's a must.

2:58Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of a interesting thing that for so long everybody was talking about niching and you should specialize specialize and now there's AI you can do more of things it feels like there's pressure to do more and as you said it will help you and it is kind of easier to get into coding get into whatever stuff but that's that's kind of against the niching thing and if somebody has managed to do a good niche for themselves, they are now pressured to go the other way.

3:32Janne Parri: So where where is the balance in a way?

3:35Punit Chawla: Yeah. I mean I think that is where parallel skills are good because it's not really breaking your niche. You know what I you know what I'm saying? It's it's just adding to like you're a you're a web person so you know about this like if you're developing a website you're not just developing or designing that website you're also designing you're also making sure that there's like the back end is ready to go the CMS the SEO you know you're you're having to sort of learn all of that just so that your project just goes over smoothly.

4:06Punit Chawla: So I think I think the balance there is like you're not you're incorporating that skill into your existing skill rather than you know kind of branching out. So it that I think the opposite of niching would be if say you're a UX researcher and now you're having to do UI design also which just breaks your specialization I think like if you're specialized in research and then you're like all of a sudden having to do screens that kind of I think breaks the purpose of the niching.

4:37Punit Chawla: Yeah, I get what you're saying. Niching is definitely the way to go, but then you're also sort of trying not to get stuck in that niche. It's it's like it's like a dilemma, I think, at the end of the day. Yeah,

4:51Janne Parri: Totally. Totally. Okay, before we go any further, we have to do little intros. So, my name is Janne Parri. You are listening to Webflow and Friends podcast. But today we talk less about Webflow and more about design. As my guest is Punit, a UX UI designer and a content creator from Delhi, India. So Punit has been teaching design since 2015. That's over 700 videos closing to 200,000 subscribers. He has a design school, Designwings.

5:25Janne Parri: And if you have been seeing like Figma tips and features in your short form feed, you have probably seen Punit's stuff. So today we are obviously going to talk about tools and AI and what those mean for designers. But first, Punit, you have been reporting on the design tools and features for years now. So how did you end up becoming the person who tells everyone else about the newest apps and features?

5:54Punit Chawla: I it I think it all started off when I think I went after I started content creation I did like a little meetup and like I just wanted to like meet designers in my country and I was just like okay let's just host like a little meetup and there people I thought you know I'm just shooting videos what can what good can that do you know but then when you meet people who you know benefit from that or like I met this guy who he's like I got my first job because of one of the videos I saw of yours and I kind of applied that and I was like whoa okay this could be something you know so I sort of got a lot of motivation from the community when they just straight up said this is super useful majority of my formats are based around updates and what's new in design and things like that so it just brings I aim to bring everything that is happening that people can't really catch up with.

6:53Punit Chawla: So like if there's a guy who's doing like a 9 to 5, he doesn't have time to, you know, go through Twitter and LinkedIn and Pinterest and like a billion other platforms. So he they're probably going to miss out on something, you know. And I saw this working full-time as a designer. I saw this happening where there were a lot of designers who didn't know a lot of the things happening and it felt like they were missing out. Like I was always on track with everything. Even when I was doing my 9 to 5, I was creating content.

7:24Punit Chawla: So, I was always researching, but I just felt they were like missing out and they were always asking me for what's new because they really didn't have like a solid source, like one place that they could just sit and read through or listen to what's new. So I think that was like my first I'd say I saw a problem and I tried to you know fill the gap so as to say and yeah I mean that's where my content creation journey started from and yeah I mean at the time my girlfriend at the time who's also now now my wife she was doing content she's an illustrator so she was doing content around Procreate and things like that.

8:03Punit Chawla: I was like, "This is this is pretty cool." Like, I've never had thousands of people following me like that. So, you know, who knows? So, I think that's where it started from, but then I saw a real problem and what I was really contributing to the community and I just kind of went from there.

8:21Janne Parri: Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. And do you still have time to do like a actual client work or has the content creation taken all of your time?

8:30Punit Chawla: I you I think I gave up on client work about four or five five years ago I believe and it was just because I was making so much more money from content creation and in such a short period of time you create like thinking like you create a 60-second reel and you're getting paid what you would be getting paid for like a full project. It just it just broke that my perception of content creation. And I think it just changed and I just went full on in on it.

9:01Punit Chawla: I was like, "Okay, I'm just going to focus on content. I'm going to focus on education and whatever other things like my events are successful and they're all so profitable. So I just I just focus on those things now." Yeah.

9:14Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. I want to get to the education and events part and the whole community topic. But before that, let's let's address the elephant in the room meaning AI. So in practice, in like real life, how do you think designers use AI tools in their workflow? Like where's the reality? Of course, we see all the fancy stuff on the internet, on social media, people prompting stuff with one prompt and doing awesome designs, but where's the reality in your sense?

9:46Punit Chawla: Yeah, I did a lot of research on this because like I get to meet so many new designers all the time because of the events and the community stuff that I do and they all give me like different answers of how they are using AI. So I think the most common one is for sure this is what they say to my face. We are now doing we're now the handoff process is essentially dead. That's what they're saying. Earlier we used to you know send out designs to Zeplin and then the developer used to sort of pick those designs up and see the tokens and kind of develop from there.

10:24Punit Chawla: Now they're just pushing to code straight up. So what they're saying is that they're pushing directly to code. They're using their companies whatever the AI tools that they're using and the they're uploading their design system onto that tool and they're quickly just setting up like a design or like a UX.md and they're just sending out designs whenever they're ready and approved and it gets implemented into the final product right up like it's it's live like in like half a day and they do say that there's a lot of you know issues that come with it.

11:00Punit Chawla: It's not 100% foolproof because there are bugs that come up with it there. It's not 100% scalable. There's a limit to what you can do with it, how much code you can actually push and what kind of what kind of assets and designs and resources can you really add to the app or the website. And then the developer has to later on come in and fix those bugs. So, it's not 100% there yet. I feel that whole process but I think it's it's getting there. I think it's if they are able to do it and the company suggests they should do it then I think it's getting somewhere with it.

11:35Punit Chawla: But yeah, I think that is one of the most common use cases in design at least. Apart from that I think majority of people just using AI for a bunch of research that they couldn't do earlier. There are certain specialized tools which are like even like tools like Maze which were being used for like UX research and testing now have AI capabilities. So you can use like an a fake persona testing out your product before you actually kind of test it out with like a real person or you invest a lot of companies don't have time and money to invest in that so they're just switching to that now.

12:10Punit Chawla: And yeah I mean overall in design but there's like a lot of designers who are just sticking to what they already know on purpose. They have the tools, they have the resources but they're not switching to like an AI workflow yet. And I get it because like a lot of designers aren't really for it. Like they know the benefit. Like I personally when I'm testing out tools, the biggest problem that I see is AI always messes something up. It's like a junior designer. It's like an intern.

12:40Punit Chawla: You don't want an intern doing like 90% of your work. It's going to ruin your work. No hate to any interns out there, but like it's just like dude, it's like half the screens that they design are just so templatized and so generic. They it has that AI what you call it AI taste. Has a certain taste. Yeah. Look, which most designers, most creative people in general, I think are against and they know it kind of sucks too.

13:11Punit Chawla: So unless we're forced to like do like a complete project in like 6 hours or something, we're probably not switching to like an AI design workflow. But yeah, for development task and for handoff and for some research for like certain testing things that you can do without actual human intervention, I think that's perfect. But yeah, I mean AI in general, I feel there are designers who are designer designers first then AI people later. I think that's the best. I think those are probably the best designers out there and they are because I've seen most of them are getting promoted faster because they have both rather than just focusing on one.

13:51Punit Chawla: Yeah. But yeah, I think that's what I've mostly noticed.

13:55Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. There was so much there. But the hand of thing I would imagine if I had to do that push the design system to some AI tool, I would be scared of how does the AI actually use my design system. I believe that is not like totally clear or self-evident that it will know how to use it. I just watched some video. It was half an hour long about how you can do a design system and the instructions for LLM. So yeah, I would be scared if I had to do that.

14:29Janne Parri: And I'm I'm wondering like are clients like actually asking for that? Probably yes. And how good the end result is? I'm not sure. Obviously that probably is the future, but what do you think when the when will the big part of the clients actually want to do that?

14:47Punit Chawla: You know, I was like looking at this tweet from Mikall. I'm not sure if you know him. I think he's from Poland and he's he's a UX designer. So he talks a lot of he has like his own design studio and like it's very successful and he's like a successful YouTuber and whatnot. So he said this that none of his clients actually are looking for a you know AI in the workflow there most of them are inclined to hire a design studio because they have designers working for them and not because they are able to do things with AI.

15:23Punit Chawla: I mean that's I think that's real something real to be honest. What happens is there are certain clients who will always ask for you know the cheaper deal or you know okay can you do this month-long project in a week or things like that and I think there's always going to be like a struggling studio who's like okay you know what I'm just going to do it's like $1,000 or it's like you know maybe like $5 $10,000 and you're not trying to miss out on that because you have to pay bills.

15:54Punit Chawla: So I think there it's like an inclination to just speed things up. I'd say I think that's like the majority of clients why someone would actually want to use AI or why a client would want AI is because of the speed and the volume of things. A majority of like but then there are actual clients who are like can we have designers who have a good taste working on this but also use AI and those are like the smartest clients I guess the best clients as of now so yeah I think when it comes to clients I think they're already asking for it but then it depends what kind of client are you attracting are you like looking at clients who have like massive budgets then they're probably willing to kind of accept that you're also just doing everything manually and AI is just a small part of everything.

16:44Punit Chawla: But then if the client has like a small budget and do everything in like a week, things like that, then maybe you're you're just having to use AI. So I think it's more on the designer and how they pitch themselves and or the developer and how they pitch themselves and what kind of clients they get. Straight up that determines if they're using AI or not because a lot of designers I know personally who are freelancers like they're doing everything manually still as I said you know like they're not trying to just jump into a canvas ask AI to design a bunch of mockups or whatever and go from there.

17:21Punit Chawla: They're actually going to like the whiteboard and doing like sketches and things like that. So I think it's going to be totally dependent on who you are and who you're attracting at this point of time. I feel I don't know what would you say like being a freelancer someone who does it? Seriously, would you say that's something that you've noticed as well like clients asking for it?

17:45Janne Parri: Not necessarily. I think that you are right if your price and your output and the timeline all checks out like the tools are fine with the client clients are not usually like that focused on the tools and yeah some might might be like thinking that okay maybe maybe this designer or this developer uses AI and that's good and they want to be kind of like AI ready but might they might not know what that means actually. So my work my work is mostly like Webflow work and I have noticed that some clients as you said they want to like proceed faster like they want to try new stuff.

18:29Janne Parri: It doesn't matter if it's like finalized and perfect. They just want to push something out, see if it works, and move on to the next one. So that's kind of where I'm right now. But my clientele is quite quite small. So I don't know if that's like the majority of clients. But I feel like there is this pressure to do things faster. Would you agree?

18:54Punit Chawla: Yeah. Yeah. I think there is like I think I think I just feel it always was there like even when I was freelancing back in the day like it was just you know there were a lot of clients who didn't understand the they weren't mature to understand in like a design from a designer's perspective they didn't know okay this thing actually takes a week or this thing actually takes a month they assumed because they saw like a final result and they were like hey can we do something like this our competitors are doing this so they always had this assumption that things were you know faster than they actually you know were in real life and I think that just came from a lack of knowledge of the design process not having like majority of these clients were non-designers so they're either tech people or just finance guys or like management guys were just approaching and they had no really solid knowledge of design unless you like you work with a company which is like very design-centric and like has hired a bunch of designers in the past and they know how things work and those are like the ideal clients I feel at the end of the day. Oh

20:06Janne Parri: Yeah totally totally and the clients that know no one understand what you are doing and also the field in general like it might not be a wise choice to jump on the whatever new AI tool or trend right on. So it's good to wait a bit and see if it actually like helps and works and so on. Yeah. But I want to go to bit more details. Usually on the show we talk about Webflow and Webflow features and competition but with you I want to talk about Figma.

20:41Janne Parri: I know that you have you have been done a few videos about Figma. So what do you think? Where is Figma heading? Should there be like concerned about the competition? And if you were the CEO of Figma, where would you focus your efforts?

20:58Punit Chawla: Yeah, I have like this love-hate relationship with Figma because they've paid me for a bunch of like collaborations in the past. Like I've been to a bunch of their events and got merch and whatnot. Like but I also have this love-hate relationship with them because I wrote this article on Medium addressing this exact thing that you just said of where Figma is headed in this AI war and like why are they not doing certain things they should be doing things like that and that got like 4 million impressions or something and that was like and then Figma sort of called me out they're like dude what's going on because they're a public company we can't have things just laid out there and it was a very perspective piece.

21:45Punit Chawla: It wasn't like a factual piece. So, for sure I think I think Figma loves me and hates me at the same time. So, I think Figma is where they want to be at, but not where they should be in the terms of competition and in terms of I think they're they're playing this it's like Adobe like Adobe knows they have this monopolistic hold on people and only only when people start shifting from say Adobe like I don't know if you if I'm sure you've edited videos a bunch so you know that there's been a shift from like Premiere Pro to DaVinci.

22:25Punit Chawla: And there's been like the shift from Adobe to what you call Affinity Suite. Affinity. Yes. Yes. Affinity. And companies, you know, from time to time will like I think Adobe in a year or so will change like the terms of service and stuff like that to kind of make things easier for designers and not have those strict subscription policies and whatnot. And so I think Figma is in that Adobe space right now where they know there is no other top-of-the-line alternative right now, cloud-based alternative.

23:01Punit Chawla: Like there's Sketch, but it's not cloud-based. There's, you know, a bunch of open source ones like paper and whatnot, which are doing like this whole, okay, we'll it's open source and it's cheaper and it's it fits into your organization. But Figma is like just like one of those plug-and-play kind of things, you know, like Adobe, you know, it's just plug and play play. You get the subscription, the next day you have all the tools, everything that you need, easy to use. You can do it on mobile, iPad, whatever, you know.

23:32Punit Chawla: So, I think they have that advantage of being in this Adobe like space where everyone's using it and everyone's subscribed. So, there's no real major reason they would shift. But there has been such a shift into as I said open source. I'm actually working with this I think Israeli company which I could be wrong. I think it's not Israeli but it's a company that Brilliant. It's called Brilliant and it's a tool which is free of cost.

24:02Punit Chawla: All design features are free and you only pay for AI. So I Figma is right now charging you for absolutely everything. Like if you want AI, you have to pay for the design features first, then pay for AI. And I think that's that kind of price ladder or price bracketing that they're kind of, you know, pushing down the user's throat is good for the investor but probably not good for the user. So I think it's it's in this very can we bring more like okay if a the number of users who are joining Figma is lower but the amount of money we're able to make out of those people is higher then I think that's that's kind of their aim right now.

24:45Punit Chawla: But that being said, I think Figma needs to just buck up and say they're kind of lagging behind. Not just in the AI race, but the design tool in itself has a lot of little things missing that I've seen in these niche open-source tools. You know, some of these tools, smaller tools are doing shortcuts and automations right out of the gate. No plugins required. Figma is too dependent on community and plugins and things like that to provide the user with more features rather than building it in into the software if you get what I mean you know.

25:24Punit Chawla: It's like Webflow like if Webflow is a solid tool but you have to use like five other partner tools to be able to launch something successfully when it comes to like SEO or when it comes to okay if I want more complex animations I need to use like this template or whatever it is. So yeah, I think it's Figma is in a good space when it comes to having a solid hold, but their tool is lagging behind and the terms of how people what people are paying for and things like that.

25:55Punit Chawla: They need to kind of switch it up and they also need to focus on I feel they need to focus more on building separate tools than like building one super app. Right now that's their aim. Let's build a super app. And if you go to Figma, there's slides, there's their drawing tools, there's there's their make, which is their al the their Claude Code or Claude Design alternative. And I mean, it's just too much in one app. I think if it was like four different apps, that would have been better, but then I get that not every user will download those apps.

26:34Punit Chawla: So, I think they're just right now they're just playing, okay, Figma is solid. Let's try and upsell our other services. So, I don't know. It's like a double-edged sword, I think, at the time.

26:46Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. I have some mixed feelings myself like in a way like there has been like new handy features and I use less and less Photoshop or Affinity alternative because I can do all sorts of stuff with Figma like just simple erase background stuff and do a little thumbnail for the YouTube video. But then again I hear about all those alternatives and the one big idea I haven't tried those alternatives but one big idea that has stuck into my mind is like if the tool like the design tool can produce some like production ready components in code like let's say react that might be a thing that actually gets me from the Figma ecosystem to some other place because I wouldn't need to need to do a development in separate tool.

27:42Janne Parri: So, have you seen any anything like that? What do you think of that idea?

27:46Punit Chawla: Yeah, 100%. The tool I was talking about, Brilliant, they do that. They do that. All their components that you're building inside the tool are already like React ready. Like they're they're ready to go. You don't need to have a separate dev mode to be able to try and convert it or anything. It's then there I think there are some other tools like which are doing that in the AI space. I think Claude Design, like most of these tools like the AI tools that were that started off with just AI prompting are now incorporating design features.

28:23Punit Chawla: So you'll see like Claude Design now has like a lot of open canvas like features and it's all ready to go. It's all ready to go from like okay development perspective even with like you have what is what is that called? Pencil which allows you to kind of make turn any like AI workflow into like a design workflow too. Pencil allows you to do that and then you know there are a lot of other tools which are again as you said you don't have to design and then develop you just start from there you're designing as if you're designing on an open canvas and then you're moving on to like straight up code clean code which you can just go ahead and publish so yeah I think that's that is definitely the next move for sure I just feel there needs to be like a breakout move like Canva needs to buy out one of these Brilliant tools or whatever and just say, "Hey, we're now in the UI space." And because they have the funding, they have the backing, they have the user base who would say, "Okay, this is cool.

29:26Punit Chawla: Canva did something. We already have a subscription of Canva. Let's try it out." that is what's missing. Most of these tools, niche tools, don't have the funding, the backing, the movement, momentum to actually push it out and say this is a Figma competitor. I think that's what's happening.

29:44Janne Parri: And Canva did the thing that you were talking about earlier with Affinity like they bought the Affinity made it free and you pay for the AI features and you actually might have the Canva subscription already. So that's that's great. I do not like live in Photoshop or Illustrator but I feel like that's a actual like competitor for the Adobe products. So that was a great great thing that actually moved people from Adobe to Affinity.

30:16Janne Parri: Yeah. It's a

30:18Punit Chawla: It's a race I think right now.

30:21Janne Parri: Totally. Totally. Okay. If there are designers now watching listening we started with thing that designers should do maybe more than design add those parallel skills and I'm wondering what are your like favorite skills to combine with design. I know that you do content creation teaching we have talked about like development coding. What are your like favorite things to recommend to people?

30:51Punit Chawla: I think number one has got to be motion because of how easy it is now. When I started it was like you have to learn After Effects or you suck at motion. I remember that time. But now it's like we have like Li Creator which is just a web- based tool and they have like these cool AI features where you just explain the kind of motion you want. Like if you're saying, "Oh, I want to I want a bouncing animation." It'll just create it and it'll put it on the timeline.

31:22Punit Chawla: So, you can then edit and tweak the timeline. And it's basically it's like one of those MCPs which does a bunch of work for you. You know, it's and it has an MCP also. So, if you're in Figma and you want an animation without leaving Figma, you can just connect their MCP and you have it like you just have a quick animation. So I think there's no excuse now like you don't have to learn a complex tool. There are so many tools out there which are doing motion in web code ready JSON you can export the JSON files for ly and you know everything's just seamless now.

32:00Punit Chawla: So motion is definitely I would say number one on my list personally because I love doing it. Then I think there is for designers specifically I would say something like slides design like presentation design. I think designing presentations is such a cool skill that designers need but they don't have I think every designer has to like pitch something at some point of time and they have to showcase something. Even if they have like a full-time job they have to pitch it to like their teams, the marketing team or whatever.

32:33Punit Chawla: And they're always struggling with slides. I used to do that. I used to struggle with slides. I used to just put some things on like a blank page and try and explain it, but it didn't make the cut always. So, I think a good presentation is such a cool thing. And I see it becoming like a career path. Like there are people who are like will make your million-dollar pitch deck for you. And that's such a cool pivot to make from UI design into like a let's just say presentation design whatever they call it now. But yeah, I mean that's that's another cool I think skill that I personally am gravitated towards.

33:09Punit Chawla: Then of course there's like no code like no code is such a such a simple thing to get started with because you already like even in Webflow or the competitors Framer or whatever they all have tools which are designed for non-developers to get started with you know like I mean that was their that's their whole business model. So, if you're a designer and if you want to learn how to build live apps and web apps and websites and maybe even start freelancing in that space, become a Webflow expert or whatever.

33:43Punit Chawla: I think that's that's a really cool space to get into. No code is the most fun I've had with a non-design workflow, I think, is no code for sure. Motion is fun, but it's complex. No code, I think, is complex when you really get deep into it. You know things like building something for scale or developing like a web app which is very complex unless you're doing that you're probably in that safe space that designers are used to so I think it's just a very seamless transition into no code and Webflow also like has so many cool features now that you really don't have to use like five different tools to be able to make a website now so yeah I think get into no code for Sure.

34:31Punit Chawla: Try out things like bubble and Webflow and there are a bunch of others which I'm not being able to recall at the moment but they're really cool and you like you can design like you can actually use Claude Code. I developed like my own widgets for my like phone. I don't know a single line of Swift but I was able to get it started with because of Claude Code. So I mean in the no code and vibe coding I think they kind of go hand in hand now but I think these spaces these three spaces I think are more most interesting to me.

35:07Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. And I believe you published a video few weeks ago going through that Figma report where you saw or everybody saw that designers are doing development tasks and developers are like doing some things with design. So what do you think of that trend?

35:27Punit Chawla: Yeah, I mean the reports say exactly what I've noticed in real life too and it's the thing now is it's it's dilution time. Earlier it was product managers were different from product designers somehow and then product designers were different from developers for sure. I mean the divide between a p a PD a product designer and a developer was very massive but that gap has somewhat been filled to the point where a developer can say hey we really don't need a designer to be able to design a button anymore.

36:02Punit Chawla: We already have the design system. We have Claude Code running for us. Maybe we can ask it to just concoct something up based on our existing code. And the same with product managers. The thing about product managers and product designers is that the only difference between them is the design aspect of it. And product managers are basically just wireframing all the time. Like the product managers I knew knew more about design than some of the designers I knew. So that was always like a weird cross-section between like product designers and managers.

36:35Punit Chawla: So I think that design gap has now filled. So they're doing more design tasks going over the designer is just skipping over it and getting into okay getting to the developers faster but at the same time then the designer is able to as I said able to do some of the development tasks push out code and do some of the product management tasks because now you don't really need to know how to do things you just ask and something will be done for you. So again, the lines have thinned out and everyone is doing someone else's task in a way, but they're all valuable like in their own sense.

37:12Punit Chawla: If a developer is stuck with a UX question, they will have to come to a designer. They're like, "Okay, if we make this mistake, the UX breaks." So they're not going into that because they know that's too much work or they know they don't have that thought process to actually do that exact task. So they're avoiding some things because they don't want to make the company lose a million dollars overnight just because there's a UX issue.

37:41Janne Parri: Totally. Yeah, these titles always get mixed up like UI UX product this product that and now there's this thing design engineer or something like that.

37:54Punit Chawla: Yeah. Yeah. Design engineer,

37:56Janne Parri: Marketing engineer. Yeah. And you always have to like check the job description what it actually means and even after that you might not know what you should do in that position. So it's it's weird. It's weird. So I would love to see a job job ad with some sort of like realistic title like we are looking for some sort of designer person.

38:26Punit Chawla: Yeah. Designer person. Yeah. I think that's that's a thing.

38:30Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. If there are like designers listening, what do you think? How should they like approach all of these new tools? Like there would be so much to try out. Should they just like spend their nights trying out new stuff or just watch your videos or what is the Yeah. What would you recommend?

38:53Punit Chawla: I've gotten hate because, you know, like I get a bunch of hate comments from people who are like, you're just, you know, running with the hype and you're not showing like we don't need so many tools and it's not about the tool, it's about the design. And I'm like, okay, cool. Then stop using Figma because that's a tool. I think it's it's it sucks because people have forgotten where they come from. And when I started, tools really didn't matter. Like when I started I was like in 10th grade or something and we were like for UI design I was using Photoshop.

39:26Punit Chawla: I was like okay there are no UI I think the only UI design tool that was I think super brand new was Sketch and you needed a Mac for it and I didn't have a Mac and I couldn't afford a Mac at the time. So I was like okay I have a Windows I'll use Photoshop. Okay I have to do a little bit of rotoscoping for a client. I'm like, "Okay, I'll use After Effects, you know, or whatever we had to do, we just got up and did it." And we didn't make the excuse of we don't know this tool, you know, like I don't remember a time telling any client, I don't know something because I knew when I especially when I started, I was like, I just have to grab a bunch of clients first, then be picky about what I know and what I don't.

40:10Punit Chawla: So, I was just saying yes to everything and I was learning from there. You know, and maybe you've even been in that position when you were starting off as a freelancer of not knowing something but still saying yes to it and then learning from there. Designers have sort of forgotten that. Especially the designers who are starting now, they're all so worried about not knowing a tool. But I'm like, every tool now looks like Figma. What are you worried about? You know? Like you can pick up any tool in a day. There are free tutorials on everything.

40:41Punit Chawla: There free tutorials on everything. There's, you know, free resources, templates, everything is ready for you. And when I started, there was no like barely any tutorials on Adobe XD. Let's just say for example, when Adobe XD was new, nobody there were no tutorials. There was nothing. And I just had to read the documentation to understand something. That's that's the most you could do. I think tools it's worth exploring every tool to the point where you just do what you already do but with that tool once and see if it fits your workflow or not because I don't think there's a single person who's like oh we don't want to save money by using a newer tool which is cheaper and better.

41:24Punit Chawla: I think it's more about people saying we're in our comfort zone don't take us out of our comfort zone. I think that's weird because designers shouldn't be like that. They should be more open. A designer should always be open to trying something new. And yeah, sure, you could be like a Figma, you know, a Figma fan or a Figma power user or whatever, but you could always try something new, see if it works for you, add it to your current workflow if you have to, if you think it's useful, but then skip over it if you don't like it.

41:56Punit Chawla: But at least you know that there's a tool that exists that can do a certain task better you know so yeah I think that's when it comes to tools I would say that is the way to go exploration is lacking and designers need to start exploring start understanding what other people are using as well because who knows the next time you join a company they ditch Figma they say now use sketch so that's like even in no code I think I see this trend of people sticking. Okay, being a Webflow expert is great.

42:28Punit Chawla: You get so many new clients. You like the tool, but then can you use a different tool if you're asked to use it? Are you going to get rid of thousands of dollars worth of a client just because you don't use a certain tool? I think that's where you have to like sort of asking yourself whether you're more you're more inclined towards tools than the people who are showcasing the tools because then you're just favoring one and not saying oh we could try this out with another. So yeah,

42:58Janne Parri: It is like a decision sometimes it might be a like good niche to use just that one tool but if there is a better cheaper alternative obviously you want to jump towards that one and within the Webflow system there's a lot of talk going on about all the alternatives that utilize like the AI workflows better Webflow Conf just in couple of days from this time when we are recording and they will announce some sort of like direction where they are heading to like utilize those AIs better.

43:37Janne Parri: So in a way many Webflow folks are doing that decision right now like do they still use Webflow or do more of like other other tools or use more of other tools. So that is that is like interesting. But to the point that you said that most of the tools today are super easy to use. So you can just do a an account and start using it. It's quite intuitive and especially if it's a design tool, there's a high chance that it looks a lot like Figma.

44:10Janne Parri: So just try it out. Find a little bit of time to try it out.

44:16Punit Chawla: Yeah. And there are so many like I always like these micro tools that you see coming out like every designer that I know on Twitter is developing and publishing like a micro tool of their own and like you see Toolfolio due to kind of posting like a mockup like a video sorry a video tool for people to present their work. There are people who are like doing stuff for shaders and like there a billion different shader tools to create shaders and to push it to code things like that.

44:50Punit Chawla: So I mean there are so many micro tools. I think focusing on major tools should be like a second thought, but like actually focusing on like okay, can I check out a bunch of micro tools that I can add to my workflow? That I think is even better because then you don't need to switch from Figma or switch from one tool to the other. You're more like incorporating those micro tools. I think that's that's a good place to be.

45:17Janne Parri: Yeah, but I kind of get the people who leave the hate comments. Like they obviously feel like pressure that they should be trying out everything, but they for some reason do not have the time. So it feels like overwhelming because there's so many tools, you should be on top of everything. So yeah that comes out as a negative comment. If people would think little harder and not take it so personally that would be better but we know how the internet works so it doesn't

45:51Punit Chawla: Yeah there is there is like I call people out when they are you know bullshitting and like I think most people who do leave negative comments on design videos are people who are usually I don't want to sound pretentious but like they're a little insecure because the designers I know who are like top-of-the-line designers, seniors, directors, VPs of design and what they're so open-minded about. Hey, let's try this new thing that's out. And like that's kind of the perspective that I'm coming from because I've seen that firsthand where, you know, like a vice president of design was like, hey, this is new.

46:26Punit Chawla: Can we try this out? Take some time out, maybe try try it out, see if it works. Like that's the perspective I've, you know, grown up with. So I feel the designers who are reluctant to try something new are usually insecure that something which is new might be a threat to what they're making or what they're doing you know and if they don't learn that then their career might not progress and I think that's false I think including me every other influencer content creator whatever you want to call them is not after people's careers we actually want to enhance your careers by showing you there's something beyond what you already use.

47:09Punit Chawla: So I think they need to also understand that we're showcasing if you want to try it out. It's up to you. It's up to you what decision you want to make after you watch our videos, you know. So I think one needs to work on oneself and say okay maybe I need to try something new, not worry about it.

47:28Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. As you said like it's your decision. Do not take it personally. You might see all sorts of interesting things and it is because there is so much stuff to try out.

47:41Punit Chawla: Every day there's something new.

47:43Janne Parri: Yeah. So I want to visit the content creation topic. So do you think that every designer should do some sort of content?

47:51Punit Chawla: I think every designer already does content. I think if you share your work online, it's it is content. You're getting likes, you're getting comments, you're someone sharing your work. It already is in a way. Sure, people like me, we do it as a part of our career, but you can always leverage it in so many ways. When I was starting off design, I started like as a web designer. So I was just doing like coding out websites and I used to post and I still have it like if someone searches for my name on CodePen I used to post a lot on CodePen and I just share design experiments like and one day I wake up and I've shared my work on Twitter my CodePen project on Twitter and I tagged CodePen just for the sake of it and next day I wake up and they're like 10,000 views on that project and CodePen shared it on shared it on Twitter like they reshared it and they put it up on their website's homepage as a featured project.

48:52Punit Chawla: So that was so cool. I was like, "Oh, this is so cool. I've never like and that kind of like couple of thousand likes on CodePen is a big deal because CodePen is already a niche platform." So, I was like, "Okay, this is crazy." Then I did it again and CodePen again reshared it and put it up on the featured because I did I think they liked it or whatever and did it a couple of more times and then I realized there's a trend that I could just share my work and people would watch. I mean that was like the first solid evidence of it and from there on like I started writing Medium articles and I started earning how much the amount I was making from Medium was the same amount I was making freelancing.

49:33Punit Chawla: So I was like, "This is crazy. I'm writing an article a week and I'm making the same." So that was really cool. And as a designer, you know, like you're a freelancer, you know how important it is to have multiple sources of income. As like a creative, as an as an independent person or even like someone who's doing a full-time job, like the kind of job market we have right now, it's always good to have plan B, C, D, whatever. So I think right now content creation should just be a normal with every designer, every creative because they already do it and they can leverage it to get new jobs.

50:09Punit Chawla: I remember a time when I was like I quit my job and because I had a decent following on LinkedIn and I had a bunch of people who used to follow my design content and stuff like that. I the next day I got a call from this guy. He's he was like director of design of some solid company here in India and he was like hey dude I like your work. I saw that you're looking for a new job. We have a we have something opening we have something opened here. Why don't you come visit? And it was less of an interview and it was more of just a conversation and the next day I had an an offer letter.

50:45Punit Chawla: So I never had to like struggle for rent and things like that. And I realized that is such a power move to not be dependent on one source of income. And that is why like if you see my LinkedIn, I've quit jobs left, right, and center just because I didn't like the boss or whatever because I knew there was something else that was waiting me for me. And I think I quit just finding new jobs the moment my YouTube was making as much as my full-time career. And from there on I just did a bunch of businesses and pursued my content creation.

51:18Punit Chawla: So, you never know where content takes you. And I always tell designers like the last job I had, I did not do an interview for. They just call they just called me in. We had lunch. Literally, we just had lunch because it was the lunchtime. And we sat there as if we were already a team. And I already had the job before I got into the building. So, that's something I tell people. Your work portrayed online in like this with this halo effect of you have so many followers, you have so many likes, things like that is just it's like when a bodybuilder takes steroids.

51:56Punit Chawla: He doubles, triples in size. It's like it's steroids for your design career. Not that you should be taking steroids, but steroids for design is like completely acceptable and legal and you should do it. And I think content is that steroid for sure for designers. So if you're a designer, you could just share like I tell people and this is something that is missing from designers their portfolios is they only have like one or two major projects you know like I used to post every little experiment, every little animation, every little UI screen like as a separate project.

52:37Punit Chawla: And that is why I had so much more volume of what I could do. And they that also showed hiring managers and like clients that I had more like I had a spectrum of work and I had more range. I could do so much more than just a designer because I had like micro interactions. Never. Nobody thought I would be hired because somebody liked my micro interactions, but I did. Like one of my jobs was like purely we called you in because we really liked your micro interactions.

53:09Punit Chawla: I'm like okay cool. I never thought micro interactions would get me a job you know. So content is the way to go for any creative person whether it's no code whether it's design whether it's art whether like you just have to find a way to connect with your community share your work and for the community to interact with that work whether it be LinkedIn Instagram YouTube doesn't matter Medium CodePen I mean whatever it is you could still build something from that

53:40Janne Parri: Yeah yeah and if there is a designer who is just starting out. You mentioned a couple of those platforms. How should they decide what would be the first first like platform?

53:51Punit Chawla: To be honest, it needs to be and I till date like I have like this little ebook, free ebook that I have on my gumroad and it shares everything that I've learned till date about sharing your work online and getting the response you want. I think it is you have to create you have to separate your life your persona online on all different platforms before you can find the one that works for you best.

54:22Punit Chawla: So if you're if you're like a real social person you like you like to let's just say you like to shoot reels and you're like you know you like to vlog yourself then you're you're probably really good for fit for Instagram. But if you're someone who's more professional, who likes to just showcase their work, not show their face, things like that, then LinkedIn is the way to go for me. Like I like doing all of it. So I write medium articles, I do like guest articles on like other platforms.

54:52Punit Chawla: I do reels, I do shorts, I do full length YouTube videos, I do LinkedIn, which is B2B. And then when you get into that, that's so much that's like you could support half of your income just through B2B on LinkedIn. And like there's so many different things out there. And Twitter is my least favorite because till date I don't know how to I don't know how to get likes on Twitter, dude. Like I try everything. I've asked Twitter influencers like people who are like only uploading on Twitter.

55:23Punit Chawla: Like I've asked them like I know some of them and like asked them, dude, like how do you do Twitter? And they're like, "Do this, this, this." I do that exact thing. Doesn't work. So, I don't know. Like, Twitter's like this game that I don't like, but I still have to play it, you know? So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think I think one should try That's what I'm trying to say. Like everything try everything. It's like there's this saying you throw you throw eggs at a wall and you see which one sticks. I think it's it's kind of goes like that.

55:55Punit Chawla: So basically you're just throwing everything out there like if you're if you have like a UI project let's just say and you post it on LinkedIn right it might get more views and likes on LinkedIn as compared to let's just say Behance and then you're like hey LinkedIn is better for me I'll keep on posting on Behance because it's still a good platform but LinkedIn is so much better for me for networking and things like that so I'll focus on LinkedIn and then you're like okay this is my primary platform now what other platforms can I try?

56:26Punit Chawla: And then you then you build formats. So if in on Instagram you can't post a full-length project like this vertically or just post designs. Nowadays it's the trend is you if you're a designer you have to show it through reels and videos. So how do you do that? So it's that kind of becomes like a format for your content creation as well. My Instagram reels are very different from my full-length YouTube videos. My Instagram is much more casual, much more laid-back. YouTube is like what you have on your end, like the like a have a setup and talk to the audience.

57:02Punit Chawla: So, you get to learn so much just by trying out new things on every platform. And every platform has its own benefit, the way it's going to affect your career, affect your content creation. If you're trying to get into content creation, it's very different. And people if there's like if you're getting sponsorships through content creation, they look at it, they look at Instagram very differently from YouTube. There are some clients who come to me, they're like, "Hey, we want to push our product through your YouTube only.

57:32Punit Chawla: We don't want IG, we don't want LinkedIn. We're only interested in YouTube." When I ask them why, the simple answer is they want like they're focusing on SEO and GEO and things like that where your Oh, Videos pop up when you YouTube videos, tutorials pop up when you search for that tool. Whereas in Instagram, nothing really pops up. You have to go to Instagram and then watch because it's not compatible with Google's whatever video tab. But you go to Instagram and it's a whole new game because on Instagram you can do automation, you can do DMs, you can do a lot of things you can't do on YouTube yet.

58:10Punit Chawla: So a brand will come to me and they're like, "Hey, we're interested in Instagram. Can we do two reels? What's the what's the cost? What's this? Can we do automation and link in DM? But they never ask for automation on YouTube because it's not available. So that's something like everything, every platform works differently. The content is different. The audience's span of attention is different. Their interests are different. They're more serious on YouTube, less on Instagram, more on LinkedIn, things like that. So, I mean, I could go on and on and tell you all about social media, but I'll try I'll share that link of that ebook.

58:46Punit Chawla: If someone wants to download, it's a free ebook. No, no, nothing required, no email, no nothing. Just download it.

58:53Janne Parri: Yeah, that is beautiful. And I for one, I'm sure to download that because I want to focus on the social media game more and more. But yeah, there's one more topic before I let you go. Well, there's one topic and one little weird thing at the end that we always do, but the last topic is about the community, the events and I know that there's a designathon coming up that you are arranging. So, what is up with all of that and how do you see that in all of in all of this design sphere?

59:28Janne Parri: Is it good to have community? Obviously, it is, but how do you see the community part?

59:33Punit Chawla: I think the reason why I started doing events was because when I was starting off, majority of mentors and people who you know gave me good advice came from events. Like I would always meet senior designers there and when I was just starting off they kind of opened my eyes to a lot of things that I was not even like focusing on. For example, there was this guy I met at a Dribbble event. I'm not sure if you remember these, but Dribbble used to have these design events, free events, and being a student, I was like, "Hell yeah, this is free.

1:00:06Punit Chawla: I'm going." So, so I used to go to these events free of cost. There was free food, so why not? And I was I was like, "Okay, cool. I'll meet people." But the thing about it was that I got so much great advice. There was this guy who gave me advice on how to approach clients as a freelancer. I never knew how to do that. And even if I had read a bunch of articles when he explained it only then I was able to okay this makes sense now. That was missing from my life before events.

1:00:39Punit Chawla: At events I met like connections and made network through there when I was not getting a lot of traction on social media like my Instagram had like 1,200 followers and I can swear half of them were bots and it was just yeah like I sucked at social media to begin with so I was a very like was a nerd growing up so I never really knew how to like do content and like be cool online so it was just like okay cool I'll just and I met like some wonderful people who helped me out later on as well like who were still in touch with me and they like they supported me when I needed like when people were like when I had backlash because of something I said or whatever they were like always in the comments like supporting me.

1:01:24Punit Chawla: So that was really cool. So I started it because of that like I was like okay events are were so cool for me and the 80% of designers who came to these events were coming to an event for the first time in their life. They were like 25 plus maybe but they have never been to a creative event before and they all loved the networking aspect and I always like I learned this from my grandmother where she used to host a lot of people. She was like a social butterfly so she used to host people and I used to like see how she kind of hosted people even my mom like she used to host a lot of people a lot of parties and whatnot.

1:02:03Punit Chawla: So I was like, okay, I got to I already know how to host. I just got to bring people together. And YouTube and social media kind of helped me do that. And from the first event onwards, one thing I noticed was they all were so relieved to come to a design event which is not about the job. So the all the people who were had like a job like a full-time 9 to 5 job were so relieved to do something different on the weekend. In their creative space and they actually enjoyed like if we did like a little activity like team building activity where we had to design something they're like this is such a refresher for us.

1:02:45Punit Chawla: We have to like at our jobs we have to do a certain task every day and it gets boring after some time or it gets it feels like a job and not like something that we enjoy and I'm like yeah this is this is the platform to be. So like people started coming because of that and then it grew. It grew from like 25 people to 50 to 75 to 100 to 200 to like 300. And I was I swear one day I'll I'll fill a like a whole stadium full of designers and developers. That'll be so cool.

1:03:15Punit Chawla: But I mean just the fact that people come together and there's no judgment, zero judgment. You have a bunch of people in the room who like understand your problem. Exactly. It's like a therapy session where they know exactly what you're talking about. They'll react to it the way you want them to react to it. And it's it's like a big family getting together and there's no judgment. There's there's none of that judgmental auntie who judges you for everything. There's no none of that.

1:03:46Punit Chawla: Without that it's like it feels like a family gathering all of a sudden. And I've seen lifelong friendships flourish from some of my events. And like these guys are like kept in touch going to concerts. I see their stories. Sometimes they're going to concerts together. I'm like what? You met at one of my events. That's so cool. So I think that was that's that is what motivates me. It also gets like a lot of sponsors involved. So that is really cool too. Companies see a lot of value in events now because they know that's like a physical space.

1:04:18Punit Chawla: They can actually connect with people rather than just social media through ads. Real designers they like I try to be like a bigger brother to them rather than like someone in par you know like there are a lot of people who are like super like super senior and people will be like afraid of them or intimidated by I don't want to be like that so all my events I'm like chatting up with everyone and shaking their hands and just having fun eating, drinking, just you know trying to make that event feel like a little party rather than like a conference, you know.

1:05:02Punit Chawla: So that's that's that's where the events come in.

1:05:06Janne Parri: You got me excited about events. I should check if there's any anything happening locally back here. And I have been also thinking that if I had the time I should try to arrange something maybe Webflow related maybe just design in general that would be good too. But what would you or how would you recommend if there's someone wanting to arrange something in their own town how should they get started?

1:05:33Punit Chawla: I think the first question would be like I for example I only host physical events in like the tier one cities of India. So we're talking Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore, the ones that people know about because they are like business hubs and IT hubs. So I try to see where those are. I don't know how would you say like Helsinki or like Finland in general has like a IT hub so as to say I would I would say that would be your target.

1:06:04Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. There are definitely those but not on the same level as the cities you mentioned. Like I believe all of those cities are way bigger than Helsinki which is the biggest city in Finland. So yeah. So

1:06:18Punit Chawla: Yeah. No, but I'm sure there are like a lot of people, freelancers, designers, like if I had to tell you to like if I had to recommend anything to kind of start events, I would say just do like a mini event for like 25 30 people and that like if you share it online and like 30 people come up, show up, you do it, you charge a small ticket because you then you know they're serious about it. You charge like what how costly events are there? But you charge them like a small fee.

1:06:51Punit Chawla: They're just paying for their food basically, their food and drinks and maybe the location a little bit. You get like a small location like maybe like a bar which gives you like a space for like 20 people and you just have that first and that way you can just judge is Finland good for events? How do I do it? How do I attract people? That's how I started as well and I never knew like Mumbai would show up. I went to Mumbai because Mumbai is not a tech hub. It's it's like a finance hub. So you'll find like all the banks like all the major banks, the Bank of India and everything there.

1:07:26Punit Chawla: So I wasn't expecting much but like there were so many creative people in Mumbai and I misjudged Mumbai and I was like okay I'm going to do even bigger events here. So I think it's more about like seeing how the events work just firsthand, trying it first and without any risk because like 20 people in like a small event hall or whatever isn't a big deal. And they don't expect much from those events as well. They're like, "Okay, this is a cool event." Okay. We're not like we're not being charged like a like $1,000 for this event or anything.

1:07:57Punit Chawla: So it is what it is. There's a free lunch, whatever. So why not? But yeah, I mean that's how I would suggest anyone should get into the events.

1:08:06Janne Parri: Totally. Totally. I should just get something something going especially in these days when everything is happening online. It is somehow magical when you get together in a physical location and actually talk with people live. Not live like we are right now. But live like face to face like there is still something magical. Oh

1:08:29Punit Chawla: Yeah, 100% man. I would say like and you have like the like you have a European passport so you just you can just grab a train and go to another country and maybe try it there you know too because like then you have Germany you have like whatever places where they're more like tech focused people and you know try it out there too.

1:08:51Janne Parri: Totally. Totally. Okay. I'll have to let you go in a bit. But before the weird last thing that we have, if there are people wanting to check you out, follow you, maybe even contact you, where should they go?

1:09:06Punit Chawla: I think the best way is to just follow me on social media, on IG, on LinkedIn, and just, you know, because I'm active everywhere. If someone wants to get in touch with me anywhere, I think it's LinkedIn, LinkedIn messaging, I check all the messages. I don't answer all of them because they're not always serious, you know, things, but I look at all of them. So if you have something to ask like I try and answer as much on LinkedIn and I do like these Q&As from time to time on Instagram too.

1:09:38Punit Chawla: So it's it's you know but you search for my name I think on Google. There not a lot of Punit Chawlas who are basically designers. So I think you'll find find me on Google too.

1:09:48Janne Parri: Yeah. Yeah. And I will obviously put all the relevant links in the description so you can check those out too. But okay, the last thing the last thing is this weird Finnish thing. So I do this with every guest.

1:10:01Punit Chawla: Okay, go for it. What follows

1:10:03Janne Parri: Is I will give you a Finnish saying. I will translate that to English and your job is to guess what that means. So it can be a metaphor, a saying or something like that. It's usually a bit weird and it has some sort of meaning. So yeah, are you ready for your saying?

1:10:23Punit Chawla: Yeah, let's go for it. Yeah. Yeah, sure.

1:10:26Janne Parri: So firstly in Finnish it is homma hanskassa and translated to English it is the job is in the glove like glove that you have in your hand. What does it mean if I say that okay this job let's say this website redesign job is in the glove

1:10:44Punit Chawla: In the glove. I'd say it's it's in the bag. Like in English we say like we got this or we secured this website. I don't know something like that.

1:10:55Janne Parri: You're actually like totally right because that is like I would translate that to like under control or done either way. So you're absolutely right with that. Yeah, that there is in the back in English. That is true. Yeah. I don't know like where does that logic come from? Usually

1:11:13Punit Chawla: I think it's like getting the bag. It's like people say getting the bag. I got the bag. When it comes to like money, like okay, I got the bag.

1:11:22Janne Parri: Yeah, maybe. Maybe. These are so strange and weird sometimes, but it's a funny funny little segment for every guest. Okay, Punit, so much gratitude and thanks for you on being a guest on the show and I'm hopeful that your day is great and weekend too. But for all the listeners and watchers, we'll see you in the next one. Bye.