Making sense of AEO

0:00Janne Parri: So this episode is all about AEO answer engine optimization with Yar Al Roshidi When we recorded this the tech gods weren't necessarily on our side He's a dynamic guy, but today the video makes him pretty frozen Luckily, the audio is crystal clear and the content is pure gold but this is a good time to remind you guys that the show is also available on Spotify, Apple podcasts and wherever you get your audio content. Just search for Webflow and friends and you'll find it.

0:33Janne Parri: If you happen to be already on one of those platforms, why don't you leave a follow and maybe even rate the show. It really helps with the discoverability and stuff. That's all, let's dig in. Okay, so Webflow is betting big on this AEO stuff. Do you think that Webflow performs better in related stuff than the other platforms?

0:57Yar Al Roshidi: So, Webflow has been doing a great job in ⁓ AEO information or teaching AEO, talking about AEO. They've been doing a lot of marketing and sharing a lot of content ⁓ on AEO strategies. They released the AEO playbook, which was a very, very good resource for learning about how AEO works, how the evolution happened from, let's say, the traditional SEO towards a more complex... So yeah, Webflow has been active in this ⁓ sense. However, when it comes to the platform, Webflow does offer a very good website. You get a very good semantic HTML. You get ⁓ LLMs.txt, Robot.txt, a lot of backend features that help with the AEO results. However, comparing it as a platform itself,

1:44Yar Al Roshidi: Is half the, not even half the work, it's quarter the work. So most of the work in regards to AEO happens mostly offsite. So maybe the site stuff is like 20%, mostly offsite because the AI searches for you everywhere, not just on your site. So having your website on Webflow, it's good. You get the semantic HTML website, a clean backend website. However, it does not make a huge difference from, let's say, having your website on WordPress or Framer. Because then again, it's the strategy that you put in matters more than the platform. The platform, yes, it's important and how much you can put in it. But however, the strategy does matter more. Now, again, Webflow does come in out of the box with a lot of nice features that supports AEO. Like again, like I mentioned, the llms.txt, the auto-generate schema markups. Now this is a very nice feature.

2:34Yar Al Roshidi: This all comes out of the box. So you get the plan you get all these features comparing it to let's say WordPress where you don't get these out of the box you have to get plugins and a bunch of plugins to generate the same the same data Framer as well Framer can compete but it still requires some plugins. For example, you still cannot do a LLMs.txt on framer I believe and to all these nice AO features you would require third party plugins to make it work. So, Webflow is the most, let's say, complete in that sense. Also, I think last week they released ⁓ a new AO feature inside Webflow Analyze, but this is focused for enterprise clients. Very nice feature was announced. I saw the announcement on LinkedIn, I think, by the account of Webflow on LinkedIn.

3:20Yar Al Roshidi: However, I haven't tested it yet, but it seems very nice update. And this shows that Webflow is on the way, on the path towards ⁓ making a platform that is... Yes, it's good for SEO, but the platform has all the tools you need right there in your, let's say, canvas. And you can use them to improve your AEO results. However, these tools or these ideas or these methods, they can be used anywhere. As long as you use the right strategy, can be used anywhere and it won't make a difference whether it's workflow or WordPress in that sense.

3:51Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, it's kind of like the same question we used to ask that is WordPress the best platform for SEO? In a way, you can do all the things with almost every platform. It's just like the question how easy it is. And do you as you said, do you have those features out of the box but it's so interesting, like to see what people and platforms are doing with the AEO stuff because it's quite still quite new and we're kind of trying to figure out all those best practices and so on. But yeah, this episode will be all about AEO but before we go any further we have to do a little intros. So my name is Janne Parri, I'm your host today and you are listening to Webflow and Friends podcast.

4:41Janne Parri: And my guest today is Yar Al Roshidi. Some of you may remember that Yar has been on the show before, about half a year ago or so. Then we talked about MCP. Today it's all about AEO. And just to remind you guys, Yar is a Webflow partner based in Barcelona. Works as a Senior Webflow developer in a Dutch agency called NoCo. And he also does his own projects with Yar AI Solutions and he has lately been focusing on AEO stuff. So Yar, how did you stumble upon this AEO thing and what made you decide to like focus on that?

5:23Yar Al Roshidi: So first, thanks for the introduction. So the search to websites has been changed. The way we're using websites started to change. I myself go on Google, even before it's HTTP. I go on Google and search for something, and I get a bunch of results. And most of the time, I read the snippet. Let's say I read the. The description, the metadata, and without me clicking on the link, I get what I want and I leave. Now this is even more. Now we have AI, even in Google we have this AI mode. You have ChatGPT, have Perplexity, so you can go and ask specific questions and get the answers which are put on some site that I didn't even visit. So I got the information I need from...

6:04Yar Al Roshidi: These sources and I didn't even go to their site, I didn't even visit their site. I don't know how well it's designed or how well it's, you know, animation or anything. It's just, I got the information. So I saw an increase in that and this shows that we are gonna shift the way we look at websites, shift the way we design and work with websites towards a more data structured type of websites because at the end of the day, the users, yes, they do appreciate some good design or good animation or good flow of the website, but at end of the day, they need the information they need. They need to know if, let's say, your product solves their problem, if your service gives them what they need. So I saw that shift and I immediately started researching into AEO, researching into how this is the way we're going to shift towards.

6:53Yar Al Roshidi: Of course, it's an opinion, I've formulated this opinion based on what I read. But I think there is going to be a huge change and we need to adapt this change by making sure our websites are well structured for this change. More than, okay, design of course matters for the users, but the structure is also very, very important. And it kind of complements each other. So now even designers, we do that at NoCo, so the designers started having AEO in mind or having this structure in mind while they're designing. For example, like adding FAQ sections to pages now, that's more frequent. Adding more...

7:31Yar Al Roshidi: Let's say the AEO way of writing, which is clustering the topics. You have the heading is kind of like the question and then the paragraph is kind of like the answer. So this format goes on in most of the pages and designers are starting to do that so that the website gets more results in the AI search.

7:51Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, that's all Fascinating we should definitely dive deeper to the content stuff. So first of all, you mentioned that headings might be like questions and then the well paragraphs or Whichever text comes near it should be the answer other like any other content related or text content related practices one should adopt in this AEO world.

8:20Yar Al Roshidi: So in the AEO maturity model that Webflow shared in the AEO playbook, they mentioned content and how content itself is... They mentioned four pillars in the AEO playbook. So it's content, technical authority and measurement. And content, of course, being the main pillar of AEO. And it moves from... Like there was a shift from, let's say, from keywords. And we used to focus on keywords when it comes to content. And now more towards, as they call it, authority. So you build the authority on the content. It's not just keywords. You're building answers, you're building pages, you're building structures to supplement the content so that you have this, you know, powered for the SEO well. For example, we're not any more optimizing for, let's say, best CMS.

9:07Yar Al Roshidi: We're optimizing what is the best CMS that integrates with HubSpot that can work in certain regions. You know, it's a more detailed prompts that the users are going for. And so my content needs to answer all these questions, needs to answer all these doubts for the user and just have more structured content in that sense.

9:30Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, that's kind of my problem with AEO. Like I'm used to the SEO stuff. I'm used to like checking out which keywords are have been looked or searched and how many times. So it's easy in a sense, see that, okay, that's the number one keyword for me and I should optimize for that. But what about all the questions? Firstly, is there a way to see what people are like asking LLMs? And should I even like think it that way or should I go with the more holistic or more broad approach or what? What would you like recommend?

10:06Yar Al Roshidi: Yeah, so you mentioned SEO. Now, SEO is... AEO is basically an update of SEO, let's say. AEO is like SEO on steroids. And there's a lot of similarities. Mean, there's a lot of things we do in the backend that we used to do for SEO. Now we just do it for AEO, let's say, in a bigger sense. However, most of this is... Now it's kind of similar and we see kind of a lot of similarities, but the difference will show very soon when agentic AIs are crawling websites and crawling information. So this is happening more and more now. I'm personally using a lot of agents that gets what I need or crawls the website research for information.

10:50Yar Al Roshidi: They have their own method of how they crawl the website. Of course, they don't crawl it normally. That's why semantic HTMLs, schemas, and all that matters now because these bots, they do crawl the website to look for information. So, AEO will start mattering more now that there's this agentic bots crawling websites. So here's where we will need to focus on it more. Now... How does this work? How can we measure this? Or how do we know what users are searching

11:15Janne Parri: You

11:16Yar Al Roshidi: For? This is a black box for now. Unfortunately, this information is not shared by, let's say, GPT or OpenAI. But the workflow now to measure or to see how much I'm appearing in AI is basically manual search. So you get, let's say, 30 prompts. You go on a ChatGPT, of course, try to go on an incognito mode or an account that has not been used. So you get like clear results and you look for your brand in different ways. You look for, let's say your brand or your product integrates or your product solves different specific problems. So you search with different questions on that and see how many times you come up in the result.

11:58Yar Al Roshidi: Now that's the way to research how well you're ranking or how well you're appearing in the AI results with LLMs. Recently there has been talks from OpenAI that they're going to be releasing ads on their platform. Once they have ads, will be, the upside of it is that there will be data shared on how much search volume is happening, what are... I don't know, they're probably going to give us some sort of more information about how users are finding us or how users are interacting with the ads, interacting with the chat. However, on other side, this ad system will only go on free users. So a lot of paid users will still don't know how they're interacting with our content. So measuring is a bit of a black box. There has been...

12:47Yar Al Roshidi: Some tools here and there, but still it's not 100 % accurate on how to measure your results. But manual search is definitely the best way to do it now. A lot of AEO agencies, that's basically what they do. They have teams where they go and manually search for your brand on different LLMs, especially the big ones, and then optimize accordingly. Your game is supposed to be optimizing in the best way so that when LLMs do mention you, they mention the right information, the information that you need. They don't just come up with something.

13:19Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, there's so much like, we already like mentioned the content. And, well, obviously, if you are already doing content, that's a good foundation. But then there's the structure. And what are the things that you should like focus on, let's say topics, and does the LLM like get the content right and if it doesn't, what can you do for that and so on. And that's just like the first pillar of the majority model or the one thing that you can control.

13:53Janne Parri: About that, yeah go on.

13:53Yar Al Roshidi: But just to add to it, so it's called answer engine optimization. So what you need to do is that content needs to be in a form of answer. Your content everywhere needs to be in a form of answer to a question that a user might ask. So this is the idea. That your content needs to be clustered in that way, especially CMS content, which is which populates a lot. So let's say a recommendation on the playbook is that you get the topics that you want to be authoritative in. You make collections of those topics and then each topic will have its own collection and then inside it's items about that, let's say integration with X and then you have topics about that. Service, the specific service you use, you have different topics about it.

14:44Yar Al Roshidi: Again, in answer format, question answer format. Also, I know in the CMS, most of the time we use a rich text field where you input everything and have heading and all that. This is okay, but now it's preferred to not do that, have it separate. So you have field for, say, challenge. Let's say it's a case study page instead of one big rich text field. You have different fields, let's say the challenge, the result, the operation. You cluster it down so that you have, again, the heading is kind of like the query and then the paragraph is the answer. And you cluster it down and this is much better for the bots to crawl your website and it's of course much better for your results to appear in the LLM search.

15:26Janne Parri: Yeah, this is obviously both about the content and the structure you use. So, I've been seeing the, some folks, do you like, mark down files for their websites? What is that about? It's probably like to make it easier for the LLM or bot to read, but have you seen that is actually like working in some way?

15:52Yar Al Roshidi: I mean, yeah, mean, statistically it works. There has been some data proving that especially the schema markdowns, these work very well. LLMs.txt have been, there has been some debates about it. It works on some LLMs, not all, however they do work, but schema markups, schema markdowns on the page itself is something very important. It helps again. Nowadays that there are agentic bots that are crawling. This is exactly what they use. Again, this is even when Webflow released it, when Webflow released the auto-generate schema markup for your page, this feature was focused on the agentics bots that are going to be crawling websites because they don't go through the ⁓ site itself, ⁓ all the HTMLs and the CSS and all that. They just go through the schema markup, they understand what's on the page and they move on.

16:39Yar Al Roshidi: Now schema markup have been there for a while. They have been there even before AI's boom. But now they're getting even more important. Having them on the page. So you basically, how it works in workflow, you build your page, you add all your content. And then on the page settings, you can just click generate. It reads your page, reads all your content and then generates. Let's say a schema markup, is a summary of what this page is about and a format that the AI understands. Like, okay, this page was published on this date. It's a blog page. You know, it has blah. So this is very important. Again, if the bot comes on your site,

17:20Yar Al Roshidi: And your site is heavy, does not have schema markups, there's lot of animations and CSS and a lot of complex sites, the bot might take too long to read it or it will just skip it because it's going to take long so it's going to go to the next source. So having that is something that the bot can read it quickly before moving on to the next source. So you're saving the bot time, you're saving yourself time and you're making sure your content is... It's out there. The important stuff are out there.

17:49Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, I believe people have heard about schema and some of the listeners have definitely like applied that there's a as you said before there's a handy feature in Webflow but now that you mentioned that those bots might be like reading just the schema or just parts of the page. I'm like wondering should I like try to put everything? Like on the whole page in the schema or like maximize the schema and are there something some like fields you mentioned like the dates that are important for the bots.

18:27Yar Al Roshidi: Yes, there are some fields that are super important. Date is a very important field. It's very important to mention the date in the schema markup because also LLMs, they do rely on most up-to-date information or they do rely on when this information was there or how valid it is right now. So having the date is very important. If you update your website, you update the date as well so that... It knows that this was updated, you have like a last updated and then a timestamp. So this is something that's very important. For as well for let's say articles and blog posts having the author is something very important. The author is also mentioned heavily in the playbook. there was an E-E-A-T so it's

19:13Yar Al Roshidi: It's about building

19:14Janne Parri: Something authority.

19:17Yar Al Roshidi: Authority on your website. And it's not just having your name. Let's say you write a blog post and it's just having written by Yannick, for example. You need to have a let's say a link to your LinkedIn profile. If I click on that name, I have somewhere where there's a bio about you, a little bit about you. So that when the LLM reads this. They know that this was written by Janne Parri and Janne Parri is an expert in this topic so that I know, this article written by an expert in the topic must be legit, I can trust it. Again, this is, yes, it's on site, but there's a lot of stuff off site going on. So it's how much you do on LinkedIn, how well you're prepared, how well your digital presence is. So this is off site.

20:02Yar Al Roshidi: And then it relates to support the article that is on site. So all these little details, they do matter. The LLMs are, I mean, we're kind of figuring it out, figuring it out how the search is happening, how it's picking information, how it's not picking information. There are still, again, some black box what happens in the end, but to optimize for it, these little details, they do. Give a huge advantage.

20:28Janne Parri: Yeah, again, that's all the black boxes and all the mysteries are like the things that irritate me and obviously everyone else like in the past like with the SEO, there was a big thing that the user experience like mattered a lot. So if people bounced on your site, that might have like affected your visibility. But now the bots are just like crawling the side and as you said, they are reading just parts of it. And if your stuff is not in the schema, that might be a bad thing for you and so on. And then there's also, I just figured out that, okay, it's one thing that the LLM uses you as a source, but then there's also the other thing that

21:17Janne Parri: You would like it to like recommend you as a let's say service provider or something if someone asks like who is the best workflow dude in Barcelona well obviously the LLM says Yar but yeah those are kind of like separate things and separate goals

21:35Yar Al Roshidi: You need to build authority. So again, what you do on your site, on your website, let's say it's 20 % of your AEO game. 80 % of it goes offsite. So of course it goes back to the natural SEO ideas, which is let's say backlinking, your presence on social forums, on social media, your presence on different sites. How different sites are mentioning you. All this builds authority and all this builds how your AEO score happens at the end. So yeah, so what happens offsite as well is very important when you come to building AEO for your brand.

22:14Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, the authority is a interesting pillar. I'm mentioning the pillar because it's one of those things that are mentioned in the workflow, a yo maturity model. And, as you mentioned, the social media, the backlinks, those are like clear things, but are there any other ways concrete or unconcrete? How we could like build our authority.

22:41Yar Al Roshidi: Another thing that builds authority well is reviews. So any reviews or ratings done by any platform like Cluster, think it's called Cluster or G2 or platforms or Product Hunt or anywhere basically reviews are because they get tagged as reviews and then the LLMs read them as a very good source for authority about the brand because you this is a first hand source. I mean, yeah, this is the best one. Then, I mean, mentions and citation works. I was watching a podcast the other day and they were talking about reciprocal backlinks. Before it, you can, let's say you and the brand, your product integrates well with, let's say, Webflow and HubSpot, they integrate well together, right?

23:24Yar Al Roshidi: So Webflow ⁓ mentions HubSpot on their website and HubSpot mentioned Webflow on their site. They mentioned them on, let's say, social media. So these are backlinks that are happening between these two brands. They're kind of like helping each other and building authority for each other. And it's all because their platform integrates at some point. So strategy like this could really help with the authority. And build you a better SEO score in that sense.

23:50Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, that's so interesting. Okay. We have talked about content, about the technical stuff. Now the authority was there fourth and fifth one fourth, at least there was,

24:00Yar Al Roshidi: Measurement

24:01Janne Parri: What was that?

24:01Yar Al Roshidi: Measurement.

24:02Janne Parri: Measurement. Yeah. Yeah, we briefly talked about that, but you mentioned that there are not like clear or good tools for those queries those questions people ask but what can we measure and with which tools?

24:17Yar Al Roshidi: So measurement is very complicated because again the tools or the data that comes from the LLMs is not there or not very... It's not like how Google used to give it. So Google used to give you this data, how much keywords are being searched, when, all the live analytics. The LLMs don't do that yet. So measurement is a bit dark. However, again like I said, measuring manually is something that can be done. Yeah, so it starts from keywords and then authority. So real-time analytics. So that's basically it. You need to see how LLMs are searching, are giving your results on, let's say, accounts that are clean. So then you go and search for your company, for your brand, for the problem you're solving.

24:59Yar Al Roshidi: And then from there you understand how you're being ranked or you're being given in the result. Now another thing users do is that when they search for you or when you come up in the answer in LLMs, a lot of times they will not click, let's say the link that the LLMs give them about your site, and they will go on Google and search for you. So for you this... If then they go on your website, this conversion counts as a Google conversion, right? But it wasn't an LLM conversion. So it's very hard to measure that. However, let's say you suddenly see a spike in your Google results or your Google clicks. You don't have an explanation for that. Then it might be AI doing the work. So...

25:42Yar Al Roshidi: Also, there are some platforms that do tell you if someone came from ChatGPT. So you get that part of the conversion, but you don't get how did they come, or what queries they made to come to you. But you do get, let's say, you start getting, I use a tool that works with Lovable, and you start getting results from specific LLMs. So I know this one came from ChatGPT, or Perplexity, or Claude, and there are tools that help you that. Now, ⁓ yeah, I mentioned Lovable. I didn't mention maybe I mentioned it briefly. Now, this is something that's also important ⁓ when it comes to ⁓ this recent, let's say, app builders, these tools that are coming up like Lovable Example, Replit, all these tools. These tools, they do build websites, so you can go on them and build a website. Design it to do it well.

26:30Yar Al Roshidi: However, these tools, in the back end, what it is a React app. It's not an HTML website. So when you publish it's published as a React application. It's a server-side rendering application. So it's a single page. And it's not rendered HTML in the first request by the bot. So the bot will basically skip it. Like most of these. React apps, like if you go on Lovable and go like, okay, write 100 FAQs and all that and all this kind of markups, if it's a React app, none of that will work. So platforms like this as well have that disadvantage. Now there is a solution of course to this. Are external tools that pre-renders your site. I use one of them called Lovable HTML. It kind of pre-renders your site in HTML to make it HTML, basically to get to that point.

27:17Yar Al Roshidi: And these tools as well, help you with measurement, they help you with getting data on how much people are visiting your site. So, lovable HTML is a nice one. I'll send it to you after. Yeah, this is something that users need to know, especially when picking a platform and when going for an AEO. Things like Webflow, WordPress, these are authoritative tools. They work really well when it comes to semantic HTML and building a website. Otherwise lovable and replicable. Great tools for building apps, but they should not be relied on when it comes to a strategy.

27:52Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, it's a weird thing like what's happening right now. Like everybody's like, well, not everybody. Some folks are saying that they are not using Webflow anymore. They are using all sorts of other things. And then there's the app builders you mentioned. And they are kind of like two separate like use cases. And I believe that those are still good to keep as separate things. I haven't used or build apps extensively, but I get the feeling, especially now what you said about React apps. But I got to ask about the lovable HTML. Does it like speed out in a way, good semantic HTML, or is it like a workaround, more like a workaround? What do you think of that?

28:42Yar Al Roshidi: Yeah, so yeah, so, Lovable itself, I've been, I use Lovable a lot. I'm guilty of that. But Lovable itself, even if you, say, tell it to build a website, it's building a React app in the backend. Then when you publish the website, or when you go on the code of the website, you can see that it's a React app. And the first call when the browser crawls your website, the first request is a JavaScript request to render the page.

29:06Janne Parri: Hmm.

29:07Yar Al Roshidi: So bots usually don't go for this JavaScript request. Browsers do, so they show you the website, but bots usually just skip that. Now there is a tool. I use it. It's called lovablehtml.com, the one I telling you about. So there's also another one called prerender.io. So these tools, they basically do that first JavaScript call, and they render the website automatically in HTML. So that the bot comes and read it, they think it's HTML and they move on. So basically it renders your site as how workflow renders your site. But this is a third party tool that needs to be there in order for you to be able, okay, now I can rank my site, I can do some AO strategies, my site is displayed as a proper semantic HTML when it's rendered. So this is a solution.

29:55Yar Al Roshidi: This is something unfortunately not a lot of people are yet aware of, but it's something very important when it comes to lovable sites or to sites built on such platforms. Again, it's different when you're building an app, that's a different case. What you want to be shared on Google and what you want to be shared on the search result. I mean, you don't want your app details to be shared on the search result. You want the marketing stuff. So yeah, that's what they were built for. Even the app builder in AppGen and Webflow, pretty cool tool. I've been playing around with it here and there. Yeah, it builds a React app. Now having such a thing, and Webflow did it right, having an app generator and having the semantic website part separated, it's great because that's exactly what you need. Like you need the marketing side to show up on...

30:43Yar Al Roshidi: Search results on LLMs, you to do your AI strategy on the marketing side, and then you have the app, which you need to focus of course on functionality, on making the app work best for your users, while having that separate. You don't want your information on the app to be shared on Google results. So I think it's been done well there.

31:02Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, totally. And as I said, those are kind of like two different worlds that are like mixing right now because of AI. But back to the AEO stuff, we, and you have mentioned bots quite a few times right now. So is there a way to measure or see, if my site has been visited by those bots and are there different kinds of bots? Would imagine that there are.

31:29Yar Al Roshidi: I mean, yeah, mean, most of these old time SEO measurement tools like Ahrefs, all these tools. So these tools, they do measure that. Again, you'll get information on where it came from, how did it find you and all that, and you will know it's a bot. So yeah, so there are tools to measure this. How accurate, how... Because again, the bots are different. There are bots being created every day, different types, different sources. So it's something that's still in the works. It's something that, okay, we have a solution today, but tomorrow you get another thing and we have to adapt. So...

32:10Yar Al Roshidi: Again, this measurement part, this end part of it where you want to know what's going on, how it's working. This is a bit, it's getting updated, let's say very frequently, very fast.

32:20Janne Parri: Yeah, where do you think that it is going? You mentioned that open AI might be, or we'll be serving ads and we got, we will get some data out of that. But do you, do you see any other trends that might be happening in the future with the measurements or other stuff?

32:39Yar Al Roshidi: There has been talks that there will be tools that provide you with this. However, still ads have been the most trusted, let's say, rumor that, we'll get some data. If ads come out, we'll definitely get some data. But other than that, it's still been in the black box. Mean, AI still itself is a very complex system. There are some parts that are still debatable. How is this part working? How is it giving you this result? It's still kind of debatable with them in the AI system itself. I mean, I think with time we'll start getting more tools that give us information, probably some native tools, let's say from OpenAI to get some data, get some results, know what's going on.

33:23Janne Parri: And I'm like thinking, how can one like even parse that like data if I at some point in the LLM conversation ask something about some service provider? How does that show up in their like data or like their dashboard? Okay, Janne from Finland asked this question, but it was the whole conversation. So there's a lot of question marks in there. But here's one theory. Tell me if you think this might be true. Since the questions are quite long if we compare those two keywords, those are long tail searches in a way, those questions. So I might ask.

34:11Janne Parri: What is the best website provider for my use case and explain the whole thing in the prompts. That might serve those service providers that have very defined customer personas or like client groups. And that way the clarity will be like the new optimization in the future. Would you agree with that theory?

34:37Yar Al Roshidi: Yes, I mean right now I was reading the other day the average prompt length is like 60 words compared to Google's search length which was like four words. We put four words in Google. So yeah, it's a long tail search. Search query. Of course there's strategy where you can let's say fill your website with a lot of content about X but still it's not enough. Again, most of it is happening off-site. Once you are mentioned off-site, you are trusted on other sources, you have good ratings.

35:10Yar Al Roshidi: The LLM will give you authority and that's where you win more than let's say you just fill in a lot of content out of nothing. So yes, clarity does matter. You need to be clear, you need to have your information in check and you need to have the information that others talk about you as well matching what you're saying and that's basically the winner in this game.

35:37Janne Parri: Interesting like yeah, but i'm thinking that not everybody especially like small companies they will probably not be able to do all this br stuff and authority building and so on So might there be a future? That just like few companies, get the get the visibility get to those answers like in the past if this has been at least 10 well not anymore but 10 like such results on the first page but in the future will there be just like top three recommendations for LLMs might that be a thing now or in the future

36:16Yar Al Roshidi: I mean, the idea is that LLMs ⁓ need to give you something that's very, very personalized to you. And it needs to ⁓

36:23Janne Parri: Mmm.

36:24Yar Al Roshidi: Do the search itself to give you something very personalized. Now, it doesn't have to be that you're a big company and that's it. You win the AEO game. For example, let's bring Webflow. Example. I was checking it out the other day. ⁓ There's apparently 64 % of CMS related searches. They mentioned Webflow, so 64 % of any search that's related to CMS, Webflow comes up. Compared to Webflow's actual market share in the CMS field, so Webflow has like 2 % of websites, I think, and the whole thing. While, let's say, WordPress have like 64 or 60 plus percent of the websites are built on WordPress.

37:01Yar Al Roshidi: And the CMS are built on WordPress. Yet more search results when people look for CMS mention Webflow. And that is because Webflow, again, it's not about the platform, but Webflow did really well in the AEO game. So they did a good marketing strategy. They're doing these content pillar pages every week. They're open about AEO. They're open about their features on AEO. Platform. They've been mentioned by other platforms as well, which again brings authority. And that's why Webflow kind of won the search game, even though they have very little market share of what they're competing in. Again, 2 % of the market share, but they're 64 % appearing in search results.

37:47Yar Al Roshidi: It doesn't matter if it doesn't have to be only big companies will appear in the search results. Small companies that do the right strategy can come up and can be authoritative. The LLM is a smart model, it's a smart technology that reads between the lines, tries to understand everything before it blurbs out a result.

38:07Janne Parri: Yeah. There will be, or there are lots and lots of millions of like local businesses. And I would imagine that people are like asking that, Hey, in my little town, which is the best plumber or something like that. But I'm wondering, will there be a, sort of feature for those local users, like Google, business is now for the, for the Google searches, I don't know if that is needed, but now that it just popped into my mind that there might be something like that. Do you have any thoughts on that sort of local searches? Questions?

38:44Yar Al Roshidi: Yeah, so one of the things that LLMs, I mean, one of the like points that the LLMs go through when they give you the result is location. So your location, of course, matters when it comes to local businesses. So if you go like, if you look into a GPT plumber near me, it will find you something actually near you to look for it will have location. Now, this is from the user side from the business side from a plumber. It's good that now I perhaps push a little bit on my on my digital presence, especially locally maybe have like some sort of like a page or an Instagram account or something that has the location that says let's say if you have an Instagram post with the location of the city some other, you know digital presence to support. Let's say your local listing

39:32Yar Al Roshidi: And of course, the listings on Google, all this Google business setup, all this is now even more required than before. And ChatGPT uses that to understand Google Maps, to understand location. So yeah, so for local businesses, it's not going to kill local businesses. Of course, location is important. But it's now more encouraging for local businesses to put more into their digital presence so that, you and I'm seeing this more often, like you're seeing more local businesses, you know, starting to care about their like, let's say social media, their digital presence, their website. And it's good because they know the result is massive and the result is that you are mentioned in a nice clean way on the ChatGPT as well. There's something important. You're not disregarding it.

40:17Yar Al Roshidi: Well, because you've been putting good content.

40:19Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, kind of relating to this local thing is language. What about like the language of the content? So let's say there's a website person in Finland who uses this little language called Finnish and should that person maybe do like English sites? Just to get into the LLMs, would that help or what is the relationship with languages?

40:48Yar Al Roshidi: I mean languages... First the LLMs are trained in English. So all LLMs are mostly trained in English. So English is the primary language that the LLM goes for when doing anything. Now, of course we have lot of multilingual sites, especially languages that are more used, like Spanish or Chinese, they're more used. So these are like, let's say the AI knows a little bit about it, but still it always prefers to go back to the English training data that it has. And that's how it responds. Now for our website builders, what we need to do is that if we have multilingual sites, we just need to properly tag the hreflang tag on the pages. Make sure that all the...

41:33Yar Al Roshidi: Different language pages are properly tagged with their language code. The semantic in the schema markup mentions that this is a translated page or this page is in a different language. So this comes as an important part if you have your page in different languages is that you just need to be more aggressive about it in the markdowns. And of course if possible having like English, let's say English Finnish website that will... Now we stronger than having just a Finnish website. Even if it's local, although it helps, even if it's local, having that always helps with the results. Because again, these models have been trained on the English language. They have been trained to translate, they do translate well, but when they're operating, they're probably referring back to their English training data.

42:17Janne Parri: Yeah. And

42:18Yar Al Roshidi: So yes.

42:19Janne Parri: I would imagine, I would imagine that it's kind of like the same thing than with the SEO. So if I have a site that uses Finnish, there's basically no chance on showing up in English searches. Would you agree?

42:33Yar Al Roshidi: Yeah, so having a multilingual site is the best solution in that, think. Or at least having the option to, let's say, have your Finnish site, there is a translated version, helps majorly.

42:45Janne Parri: Yeah, little thing about the Webflow localization. I was just doing like some schemas for my client and they had like two languages and obviously I need to update the second language too. But then I tried to use the auto translate feature that is there by it translated all the schema like titles meaning the like the word description and so on. So that was a little bit of bummer. But then I just sent those to Claude and translate those in there. So there's a little thing that Webflow could do better maybe. Have you done a lot of like that sort of things in your work?

43:31Yar Al Roshidi: So, the auto-generate schema from workflow, of course I use it majorly. The auto-translate as well is a feature. I don't use auto-translate on the CMS itself. I use the workflow MCP to translate or work with one secondary locale. And it works really well. You can of course connect to cloud so you have a very good AI to work on your secondary locale. I always recommend that to clients. The Webflow MCP also can ⁓ add your schemas or edit your schemas. So that's there. However, if you do use, let's say, ChatGPT or Claude or the MCP itself to generate schema, it's best to test them after you publish. There is a tool called validator.schema.org. It's by Google.

44:20Yar Al Roshidi: You just put in your URL and it will read your schema and it will tell you if everything is good. So always double check. I remember when the workflow generate auto generate feature first came out, it had some bugs. So it was generating some unnecessary schema points that used to get flagged on the validator schema. But now that's resolved, that's not there anymore. But it's always good to double check with the validator schema. Different languages, different pages. Always double check it there and it will tell you. So yeah, that's recommended. The MCP when it comes to secondary languages, for sure.

44:59Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, I don't know why I didn't thought of thought of that would have been easier. Well, maybe not. It was not in my account. So I would have had to like ask permissions and so on. But yeah, the last episode we did was all about MCP so we could take a little like revisit to that there has been updates so how much do you use MCP like the Webflow MCP? MC, why is that so hard?

45:33Janne Parri: MCP.

45:35Yar Al Roshidi: Bye.

45:36Janne Parri: How much do you use that nowadays?

45:38Yar Al Roshidi: Yeah, ⁓ I love the MCP. It's one of the best things Webflow did, to be honest. ⁓ I have it connected to my cloud desktop. So I use cloud desktop app and I have it connected there. And then I use the co-work feature to, let's say, to populate content, to generate something, to design something that even works, design. It's getting pretty cool. The new Webflow MCP update. It's using less tokens, very important because it used to use a lot of tokens and that was the main problem. I think last episode I was complaining about that. Now it uses

46:12Yar Al Roshidi: Less tokens, it's much more efficient and with cloud as well, it works really well. I also have the cloud Chrome extension. So all these complementing each other with the workflow MCP. They kind of give a very good workflow. That allows you to do a lot on your CMS, on your website itself. Let's say you wanna add scripts, check broken links, do AEO audits, schema markups. All this can be done in bulk through the MCP. So I'm using it a lot. I'm recommending it to clients as well. Our clients, come every time.

46:47Yar Al Roshidi: They have, especially if they have secondary locale, they have CMS, if they have a lot of this stuff, I do recommend using the MCP so that it helps them manage these stuff and they can do things in bulk like, okay, remove these keywords from all the articles. I don't wanna use it anymore. You can do that. Yeah, schemas and all that, it's very powerful.

47:06Janne Parri: What about components? Someone said that it now works with components too. Have you been doing component stuff with MCP?

47:15Yar Al Roshidi: I think it was a few days ago they released, you can directly now do AI components or AI generated components inside workflow. Because before you had to code them in, but now you can directly do them. I honestly haven't used it yet, but I will be testing it this week. But it seems pretty cool because you can have these, let's say special feature components like a calculator or let's say a special pop-up thing or something you need to code basically so you can have these components directly on your website generated by AI directly there. Pretty interesting, pretty cool. I will be testing it this week so let's see how it

47:54Janne Parri: Yeah, those are, if I remember correctly, those are like named AI code components. Yeah. If someone wants to check, but I was thinking that can the MCP use the components, like the regular components that are in my Webflow project and maybe do some, generate some stuff for the component properties. For example, if I have a text field there. Do you know anything about those things?

48:23Yar Al Roshidi: That's an interesting one. I'll be trying it out actually to see if it changes the property of the component. I know it reads the component, it knows the name of the component, editing the property of the component. I haven't tried that but it can manipulate like let's say the design of the component so that's there. I know in the CMS you can generate fields, edit fields. Remove fields, so maybe if that's there with the MCP, then maybe the components one is there too. I need to look into that.

48:52Janne Parri: Yeah, no, I should, I should do it. It would be just an easy, test to try out or ask that can for the LLM or the MCP or Claude that can you, can you edit those? But yeah, that's obviously the thing I'd like to see if I have a good component library that it could use that and maybe even build pages out of, out of those things. But okay. Back to the AEO stuff. I'm like interested. What are you doing for your AEO efforts? Like are you planning or doing more content? Are you building authority or what are you like currently doing for yourself?

49:37Yar Al Roshidi: So there has been some changes personally. I know I've been offline for a few weeks, but I have announcement to make. So I was mentioning this earlier. So I'm no longer with NoCo anymore. I'm no longer a senior developer at NoCo. And I decided to go back to freelancing full-time, going back to working with different projects, different companies. So this is gonna be happening at the end of may, my contract finishes and that's where I have a plan to build more authority when it comes to AEO. So you're gonna see more of me saying AEO stuff from now on. And that's the plan basically to build on that. And again, it's 20 % work on the website, but then 80 % it's work what you do outside of the website.

50:23Yar Al Roshidi: And how people are appreciating your service.

50:28Janne Parri: Yeah, I know that you have your YouTube channel, so will that be a big thing in the authority building pillar for you?

50:38Yar Al Roshidi: YouTube is a very big thing when it comes to the authority pillar. It's studied, there's a lot of stats on YouTube results. So this is very powerful having a YouTube channel when it comes to AEO. Now, the search, of course, they don't see your video most of the time. They just see, they read the transcript and they read the details behind it. But YouTube is very powerful and yes, I will be... Going back on YouTube to push more content and share what I learned about AEO, what I'm experimenting, because again, it's a very new topic. Don't trust anyone that tells you they're an expert in AEO. There is no one an expert in AEO. It's still getting renewed every day as well. So it's an experimental thing. A lot of people are doing experiments and sharing what they know. So this is the most...

51:22Yar Al Roshidi: Useful piece of information you can get now about this topic. So you'll be seeing more of me there. For sure.

51:28Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah. But how, if there is a person like you or me that produces videos, how can we like make the best out of those videos? The LLMs will not like watch them through, especially like long form stuff. Should I like publish those transcripts somewhere or do something like that with those? What do you think of that idea?

51:52Yar Al Roshidi: Most of the time YouTube auto-generates. They can auto-generate the transcript, so this is there. However, what I do personally to make sure that, because sometimes I have some accent problems, so what I do personally, I write, I put the subtitle file, I upload it with the video, I make sure that the words are written correctly, and I upload that file with the video. This helps because then it's my transcript, I wrote it, I know what generates and then the AI reads that. Of course, descriptions, all the details, all the text you write with the video is important. However, I think that the most powerful one is the transcript. And of course, you get more views, more authority. That's how.

52:32Janne Parri: What about, would it beneficial to publish that as a article on your website? What do you think of that?

52:39Yar Al Roshidi: Well, you mean to publish the video as an article on the website. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that also works. Of course, use canonical URLs. But that works. Of course, if you mention your own video or if someone else mentions your video, that's even better. Yeah, videos are scrolled heavily. A lot of times I search on perplexity and I get a result as a video. So videos are searched. Also, timestamps, if you use timestamps in the video, very, very important, helps a lot as well because then the AI just shows that timestamp specifically for that query. So.

53:15Janne Parri: God should I should I like optimize those for certain questions or keywords to like

53:22Yar Al Roshidi: Yes, exactly. Exactly that. You need to optimize it in a way that, OK, a user is going to search for this. So how do I write it? And you write it. I think it doesn't have to be a question. Not what is the best CMS, like best CMS. But optimizing that, timestamps in the video, it's very powerful. And transcripts, like captions, or subtitles, or captions. Transcripts, however you call them. Upload it with the video whenever you upload the video on YouTube. This helps a lot and gives better ranking for your video itself. Even YouTube rewards you for that, so it's good.

53:53Janne Parri: Oh yeah, my to-do list just got longer again.

53:56Yar Al Roshidi: I'm going to go.

53:57Janne Parri: Hopefully I can find some time for that too. But what about other social media like posts, let's say LinkedIn or Twitter or Instagram, are there something we can... How we should think of those in terms of this authority and AEO landscape. What comes to mind?

54:24Yar Al Roshidi: LinkedIn is a well-known platform for the professional scene, let's say. It's very known for that. They do have articles, they do have some features where there is a lot of content. X as well recently published articles. However, X is not... They have their own world. They use their data differently. ⁓ However, think Reddit is a very powerful platform that needs to be used. Especially, search engines do rely on Reddit heavily. LLMs search engines, I mean. Even from the beginning, if you go with LLMs, you do a search. Most of the time, there's a Reddit source somewhere. They read the Reddit page or they want to read the questions. Because Reddit is very first-hand.

55:07Yar Al Roshidi: Information. The people, they're just writing information. They're asking their questions, other people answering them. It's very raw data. So it's very useful and it's very authoritative. I would like if it was me, would first to populate my own content on the website. I would go on Reddit, search for what people are asking, get like good questions and have an FAQ section and answer them on my website. And I will also put my answer on Reddit as well. I go on Reddit, I answer those questions there. I don't necessarily have to link back to my website, but I also answer the questions there. So this kind of also gives authority to my work.

55:49Yar Al Roshidi: So

55:50Janne Parri: Yeah, I had.

55:51Yar Al Roshidi: Reddit is powerful when it comes to EU.

55:53Janne Parri: That's an interesting tactic. I knew that Reddit is an important thing that I haven't gotten there yet. But maybe I'll join there too and post something there. There's just so much stuff one could do, like all sorts of things. Even just in your own website, not to talk about every other social... Platform and ways of building authority. But yeah, I kind of jumped away or over your announcements, but I'm, want to come back to it. And I want to like know a bit more, like what sort of projects are you going to do with your

56:45Janne Parri: Your like own, would you call it freelance business or regular business? Are you focusing on AE, or, website projects or maybe even, dabbling with some product or AI software stuff or yeah. What are you planning to do?

57:02Yar Al Roshidi: So, yeah, so I will be shifting more towards development. Let's say the development of the AEO part, the strategy of the AEO part as well. So I'll be offering like services that relates around, let's say I'll have a tier one service where it's auditing, researching, getting information about how AEO is working for your brand. I do that list, let's say the list of prompts. That I go on incognito GPTs and I ask them to see how the results are appearing in regards to your brand. So this is some service I will be doing. Another service of course is implementing the technical parts which is doing all the semantics, all the markdowns, all the files that needs to be done, comparing it to earlier results. So it's a more...

57:52Yar Al Roshidi: On-hands service. And of course I'll be offering retainer services because again this is a topic that is ongoing. So I'll be helping to keep the research ongoing, to keep the page or the digital presence itself. I want to expand as well a bit, not just the digital presence of the website but the digital presence overall to get the best AEO results. So... So that's my strategy. Course, Webflow is going to be my number one tool. However, I'm using Lovable lately. Lovable is great. And a ⁓ lot of integrations with Claude to Webflow as well. That's working great, speeding up a lot of my workflows. That's going to be the focus after NoCo. NoCo is a...

58:34Yar Al Roshidi: Great agency. Mean, I've learned a lot working in an agency environment. They're also in the AEO game where we've optimized a lot of websites and AEO. So I'm taking a bit of that experience, the experience I had earlier with freelancing. I also have experience in marketing. I graduated marketing actually. I just did this development part of myself. So there will be like a mix of all these. To offer services that are more AEO focused, more technical focused and strategy.

59:05Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah. Have you thought how will you package those services? Like you mentioned that there will be retainers and the like initial, discovery and obviously like the builds and such. But if there is a retainer, are you thinking that you're gonna just do like hourly work or do you have like some sort of line items in a way more subscription type of things that okay, you will get these things every month or how are you planning to structure those?

59:36Yar Al Roshidi: Yeah, so I did think about it a lot, so I did a three tier pricing. So again, the tier one will be project based audit research, information based. You get a report based on the project. Another tier, which is the implementation. So of course, this requires more hours, requires more time. Usually it's like a couple of months or three months time where you just like implement or build the website in an HTML, AEO focused way. So this is a tier that I'll be offering. And the retainer is something that I want to be, I mean, it's of course you'll get like, let's say a weekly report of search results in some search LLMs.

1:00:18Yar Al Roshidi: Have a package, so weekly results of the searches on main LLMs, this is something that's part of the retainer. Of course, if there are requests during the retainer, I will be doing those. But the main idea is that to keep the website always up to date with the AEO features, the AEO requirements, always update the website as well because also the LLMs, they do like... The most recent piece of information, they would rely on it more. So having that is useful and it be powerful for a company as well to have someone take care of this because this is a new thing that a lot of companies, they kind of either ignore or just like call the developer and go like, do some AEO stuff. So

1:01:03Yar Al Roshidi: Just that, it's a lot more than that. So you need attention to that topic for sure nowadays.

1:01:10Janne Parri: Yeah, as we have talked to there is still the world or people who do the SEO stuff love it. So hate it's an ongoing thing and if you want to stay relevant you kind of have to put effort to it but I'm wondering are you maybe considering doing like content? Let's say articles block articles for clients and how are you planning to do those?

1:01:37Yar Al Roshidi: I haven't done content for clients. I'm not a very good copywriter myself. However, I do content for myself. I mean, if you me do content on some social medias, I haven't done it professionally. I never thought about it actually, because content as well, it's a whole thing, a whole story that, know, it's a whole industry and you have to be really good at it. So... I will be advising about content strategies, but writing the content itself, maybe it's something that I will not be doing directly. But yeah, but like we've been talking, the content strategy and having the content pillars and having the question answer type thing, having collections about what topics, all these can be worked around and help the client write it.

1:02:24Janne Parri: Yeah, I've been struggling with content whenever I have done that for clients. I nowadays

1:02:30Yar Al Roshidi: And talk.

1:02:31Janne Parri: I do not do that, but back in the day I did some SEO work and I realized that oftentimes I would advise the client to do some content to like mainly blog posts or new, landing pages and they would never get done. So I kind of took that

1:02:50Yar Al Roshidi: You

1:02:51Janne Parri: For myself, but I realized what you just said that it's a hard thing, especially if the client is in some special field, you kind of have to know things about the field, but then the clients might not be expert copywriters. So there's like a gap and I'm thinking that. It would beneficial if there was some sort of like a copywriter who could help with that, like deliver a somewhat like bigger or more final services, if you may. What do you think of that kind of idea?

1:03:25Yar Al Roshidi: Yeah, mean, having a copywriter is important. It's been important before. And I think it's more important now, given all this that's been updated with AI. Because back then, copywriters used to write the article. They focus on the keywords. They have to mention the keywords in the right way. So that was their strategy. Now it's a bit different. And they have to also think of the bots and how they were going to read the article. Different story

1:03:48Janne Parri: Hmm.

1:03:49Yar Al Roshidi: For them. But having a copywriter is very, important. Now, a lot of times, maybe small companies or small businesses, they would opt for AI-generated content. They would opt for AI to be their copywriter. Or they do keyword research with AI, or let's say, ask the AI, give me some ideas of questions that I can ask. This is good, but it's not going to give you good results. Most of the time it's queries that look nice, but they are not real queries that people look for. So do not rely on AI when it comes to content. Do double check. Do go on first-hand, first-person source, like Reddit questions, for example, like you said.

1:04:31Yar Al Roshidi: Your own sales calls or your own talk to the clients you get questions and you can use those in your content.

1:04:38Janne Parri: Totally. I've sometimes asked like keyword ideas and they are exactly what you say. They look nice, but if you know anything about the topic, you straight out of the gate know that those are not things that people are like searching for, but do you have any ways of maybe automatically like scraping those Reddit questions or some other like better sources than just the ideas that LLM puts out.

1:05:10Yar Al Roshidi: Yeah, of course you can scrape. Use Firecrawl, it's a great scraping tool. Firecrawl, you can get some data. Now Reddit is a bit... Like they block a lot of their data so it's a bit hard to scrape fast. But tools, think tools like Firecrawl works like that. It's a paid tool which you can scrape very good. You can get the data you want. And you can of course use it, let's say with your agent, you can get the Reddit posts that you need, you get links to them and then you can make a good strategy that way. But yeah, that's a good way to do it. I if you follow

1:05:46Yar Al Roshidi: Up, it's good way to do it.

1:05:47Janne Parri: The nerd in me like rises and I'm like already thinking of the scraping automation when I should just like be thinking like updating my old site. Yeah, the attention is weird thing. It jumps the new stuff. It's kind of like procrastinating for me.

1:06:06Yar Al Roshidi: Thank you. You're thinking it's okay, ideas come up, have to

1:06:08Janne Parri: Yeah. Okay, you are.

1:06:11Yar Al Roshidi: Buy better.

1:06:12Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah. So at some point I have to have to let you go. But do you have any anything that you'd like to add about a EO your own on services or workflow before we go to the last sections?

1:06:26Yar Al Roshidi: So, AEO is becoming very important. The way we're building websites, we're structuring websites is kind of changing. Design is still a very important part, however structure is kind of winning the game nowadays because there's a lot of different, let's say different places where your site is being visited and it's not just humans. And we need to make sure that our content is well prepared for that, not only on the website, but on all over the digital presence. And we need to know that, you know, even though our website's 100 % AEO optimized, if our digital presence is not, it kind of beats the purpose. So we need to know this equilibrium of how we share content across different mediums. And yeah, and I...

1:07:16Yar Al Roshidi: I'll be back to freelancing and I'll be focusing on the SEO as the main topic. So, happy to help anyone who has an interest.

1:07:25Janne Parri: Cool. And if people wanna check you out, follow you or contact you, where should they go?

1:07:31Yar Al Roshidi: So, yar.website, that's my website. I'm on LinkedIn as well, /yarashahidi. You can find me on YouTube, /yarashahidi as well. So yeah, and on my website, on yar.website, can find my socials, you can book a call with me, so I'll be there.

1:07:46Janne Parri: Nice, beautiful. Okay, the last thing for the dedicated listeners.

1:07:50Yar Al Roshidi: To

1:07:51Janne Parri: Do you remember what was the thing that we always end these things?

1:07:55Yar Al Roshidi: Yeah, was a quote, right? It was a saying. I'll have to get a saying.

1:07:59Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah. I actually do not remember what was the last one that I gave to you, but I have a new one. And this time, well, actually for someone out there who might not be familiar with that thing, I will give Yar a Finnish saying. I will translate that to English and Yar will try to figure out what does that saying mean. So this time your saying is firstly in Finnish, Matti Kukkarossa. And it means to have a Matti in the wallet. And Matti is a name for Finnish man. Very like popular name in Finland. So what does it mean when you have a Matti in your wallet?

1:08:41Yar Al Roshidi: So is it like I have the guy for everything? The guy that helps me with everything? Having like a handy guy, having a guy that you know, can ask him for things, he can do things for you. He knows where to go when you need something.

1:08:56Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, that's not the right answer, but that's a better logic than the actual answer. And the

1:09:00Yar Al Roshidi: What the?

1:09:03Janne Parri: Actual answer is as simple as to be poor. So if I have Matti in my wallet, I'm just poor. Like I have nothing in my wallet. I do not know why it's a guy called Matti, but that's the thing.

1:09:17Yar Al Roshidi: I got it wrong because having like a common name, there's always this name, you know, and every language like here, it's Pepe in Spain. And, and yeah, like this, usually these guys, they know everything, you know, so you go to Pepe, he probably knows everything he can get you anywhere you want to, you want a new hammer or something, they know where to send you.

1:09:38Janne Parri: Yeah, yeah, I know. Totally. Okay, Yar, thanks so much for being a guest again, and hopefully we get to do this again sometime in the future. And until then, for all the listeners and watchers, see ya.

1:09:53Yar Al Roshidi: Bye bye, see you.